Question And Advice About Lee Dippers And Load Data Sheet That Comes With Die Set

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by flyingtiger85, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. soundguy

    soundguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    15,651
    Location:
    florida
    Speaking of dippers, here's a set I use with black powder, next pic is a dipper I use on smokeless for 45-70 making reduced loads with trailboss. Push in, grab powder on way up, shave top.

    Case that dipper is from might be a .50AE ?
     

    Attached Files:

    texdon likes this.
  2. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    8,239
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    The original poster said that the LEE dies came with an instruction sheet that suggested:

    "It suggest that CFE-.223 55gr.jacketed bullets use a 1.6 dipper.If you weight a 1.6 dipper on the scale it weighs at 29.7 grains.The never exceed amount is 27.8grs."

    Anyone here want to recommend this LEE dipper load to a new reloader who does not have a scale? That is more than 2 grains over the maximum load.

    I stand by my assessment that LEE dippers can lead to a safety issue and repeat my suggest that no one start reloading without a scale. Relying on LEE to tell you the correct dipper can be dangerous. Dippers are fine if you validate the load they deliver. The same goes for the LEE disk powder measure with calibrated holes.

    LDBennett
     
    texdon, grcsat and drymag like this.

  3. drymag

    drymag Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,797
    Makes sense as the disk are just dippers w/o the human scooper.
     
    texdon and soundguy like this.
  4. soundguy

    soundguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    15,651
    Location:
    florida
    Yup, drop fill and rotate to scrape.

    My rcbs is a good thrower, just throw and measure and adjust till you get what you want.

    Admittedly, I use my Lyman dps1200 auto dispenser a whole lot more ;)
     
    drymag likes this.
  5. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Missouri Ozarks
    Good grief, that's what I said, if a scale is used. I don't recall seeing using a loading manual in this thread, perhaps I missed it. I do know nearly every person on here suggests first thing a new loader does is invest in manual and digest it. Until one is very experienced that is where their data should come from. I never did imply using Lee's data or even mention it. You said throw the dippers away, I said learn how to use them. Dad taught me to use dippers, as I mentioned, at the ripe old age of 8. You stand by your opinion and I'll stand by my assertion that if an 8 year old can load safely with dippers, under supervision, surely a reasonably intelligent adult can do the same. If you don't want to learn or don't believe others should, fine, it just seems a shame to write something off simply because you disagree with it, aren't comfortable with it or won't learn to use it. We ALL had to learn how to reload and there is assuredly more than one correct and safe way. Reloading anything can lead to a safety issue if not done correctly. There's several threads on this forum about guys who didn't or wouldn't learn and suffered the consequences. Rather than tell a new reloader "no, don't do that, it isn't safe", I'd much rather teach them the right way or learn how to do it along with them or say "let's find out". There is definitely safe ways to do all the above.

    LD, you're one of the most knowledgeable and conscientious loaders I read and believe me, when you write something I read it. The only thing I have a hard time coming to grips with is when you discard something out of hand because you have it engraved in your mind it is unsafe yet it appears you haven't explored it far enough to actually know. There's a whole lot more to this game than you and me combined will ever know. I want to learn as much as I can as long as the Good Lord gives me time to learn it.
     
    PeteKin, jsjj388 and slayer like this.
  6. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    8,239
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    I don't care how anyone uses or doesn't use LEE dippers but I do care when they are touted as OK when sometimes the dippers don't measure safe amounts of powder when using the LEE instructions.

    The original poster found they gave 2 grains excess over max load. Is that safe? He had a scale but the concept with dippers is to use the LEE instructions and not use a scale. That's why they are calibrated in cc's and the instruction give the chart.

    We as old hands to reloading can not allow new reloaders to be lured into an unsafe situation. To me the whole idea of dipper is dangerous because it makes a reloader old or new think they don't need to use a scale.

    Since LEE seems to think it safe and it is potentially not, then the dippers should not be qualified as OK. So.... throw them away.

    LDBennett
     
  7. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Missouri Ozarks
    Throw the data away, keep the dippers. You're actually arguing Lee's data and I agree with you. I'm arguing the dippers themselves and used properly there is absolutely nothing wrong, incorrect or unsafe with their use which harkens right back to what several others along with me have said. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    The original title is "Question and Advice....." Not just the allusion to the Lee data. That was presented as an example. There is two points to the title, not just one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017 at 6:09 AM
    slayer and jsjj388 like this.
  8. grcsat

    grcsat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,882
    Location:
    far,far,North
    I really don't see a problem of using Lee dippers if used properly.
    Notice I used the word PROPERLY. As far as I am concerned everything about reloading is consistency and safety. If you can use a dipper and have it give you a constant pour of powder that is safe to use , then why not. I am not that consistent with a hand powder dipper but I am sure some people are. Like many others I did graduate from a dipper to a scale and dribbler.
    I do believe that when changing to the scale method my reloads were far more accurate.
    The one thing I will say , is that I have never won a shooting match using Lee equipment.
    But there again, I got @ss kicked in competition by a guy who used only Tasco products. Go figure.
     
    soundguy, sharps4590 and jsjj388 like this.
  9. jsjj388

    jsjj388 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    888
    Location:
    HICKTOWN (AKA HAMPTONVILLE), NORTH CAROLINA
    Hey now, dont knock tasco lol. I too moved from the dippers quickly, but I do still use one on my .243 loads because it was what my uncle used and has his rifle scope (ironically a tasco haha) set to, its safe so I use it! When used in consistantly and correctly, they are just as safe, and in some ways safer than a powder throw. Think about it, if you use a dipper that is a middle of the road charge, even if you are inconsistent in how you do it, you arent going to be able to over charge unless you dont level it off!
     
  10. RandyP

    RandyP Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    523
    Location:
    Chicago
    In my experience Lee data has always been conservative, that is to say the dipper or disk hole generates LESS charge than the sheet would show. Could someone post that data sheet again showing the column identifiers? Are we certain it is calling out a 1.6 dipper? Not knowing what each column is does not give me enough info and I'm too cheap to buy the sheet just to find out this bit if trivia - LOL - I have been using the disks for years and usually have to move up one number to get the right (verified by a scale) powder charge.
     
    soundguy likes this.
  11. RandyP

    RandyP Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    523
    Location:
    Chicago
    I would add that dippers, disks or drums are all doing the exact same thing - measuring out a powder by volume and we then are responsible for seeing how much that was by weighing it.
     
  12. LDBennett

    LDBennett Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    8,239
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    But there implication to a new reloader is that he does not need a scale because the instruction sheet lists dipper vs. weight. Using the dipper without scale verification is my complaint. By publishing the data sheet LEE leads a new reloader into a potential serious problem. The original poster found that out...2 grain overload!

    LDBennett
     
  13. jsjj388

    jsjj388 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    888
    Location:
    HICKTOWN (AKA HAMPTONVILLE), NORTH CAROLINA
    Actually, the Lee book says to weigh every charge. I will go look at my data sheet that came with my .223 ultimate die set and check the charges, though all i have is varget. Also, I have seen max loads vary by a couple grains from book to book, so what is the max load? the highest or the lowest?
     
    sharps4590 likes this.
  14. soundguy

    soundguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    15,651
    Location:
    florida
    I have a Mossberg bolt 30-06 with a tasco scope on it, got the whole deal from a show for 80$

    Its not pretty, metal is loosing finish to white, wood is dark matte, with a few dings, no rust, paint wearing off tasco scope.

    It puts bullet holes on my 100 yard target the same as my various REM 700's with Simmons and Bushnell scopes.

    It outshoots a marlin 336 I have with some German scope I can't remember the name for, the scope cost more than the rifle. I have a couple winchesters and a weatherby with redfields that can however do hole in hole.
     
  15. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,247
    Location:
    Missouri Ozarks
    LD....most folks are agreeing with you. If you're new or unsure they should be checked with a scale. flying tiger has a scale. From re-reading the entire thread you're the only one, including Lee Industries, who has mentioned an implication about luring new loaders into a false sense of security. You're about to start arguing with yourself.

    jjsj brings up a very salient point. We've all seen the difference between max loads from one source and the next. Most of us know why, the difference in equipment for one big reason. What precisely is the difference if a new handloader uses X load with Y bullet and it is 2 grains over max according to Z data? Use data from the bullet maker? Lyman, Lee, Hodgon and others do not make bullets nor are they always specific to what bullet they do use in gathering their data. Not everything in handloading is cut and dried, black and white. Not all the answers are in books and no writer for a magazine or who author's a book knows everything. It's impossible. Somewhere in the process one needs to claim their responsibility and use a good dose of common sense and if they aren't certain, check, double check and triple check then check again. Then, as Davey Crockett said, "make always certain you are right, then go ahead". I have quite a bit of faith most new handloaders are pretty conscientious if not trepidatious and will go slow. I also think they're smart enough to use a dipper correctly. What the heck, dippers have only been used safely and successfully for well over a hundred years with smokeless....but those old guys were probably smarter than us.
     
    slayer, soundguy and jsjj388 like this.
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
The Ammo & Reloading Forum Questions/advice, 38 vs 45 Colt Feb 9, 2016
The Ammo & Reloading Forum 7mm Rem Mag build question...about chamber pressures Yesterday at 7:29 PM
The Ammo & Reloading Forum Reloading question of the day #6 Feb 14, 2017
The Ammo & Reloading Forum Brass shotgun case question. Feb 13, 2017
The Ammo & Reloading Forum 7.62x54r Reloading Questions Feb 12, 2017