Questions about my 1st 1911

Discussion in 'The 1911 Forum' started by Gammetrunner, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    I'm new to the forum. I have been wanting for some time a 1911. I had been looking for one of the Argentina Sistema Colts but instead I was able to get my hands on an older model. I have done some research on the 1911 through websites but was hoping to get some input by some who may have more experience and knowledge on them. This 1911 has a worn finish, no rust. The action works good and its in firing condition. From my research it appears it may have been made in 1944. The serial number is 1,7XX,XXX range.
    What I'm having some trouble determining though is exactly what model 1911 it is. On the left side it is marked with the patend dates up to Aug. 13, 1913. Next to that is stamped Colt's PT F.A. MFG. CO. Hartford CT. USA. Just below the slide lock is stamped "FJA". On the right side of the slide is stamped "MODEL OF 1911 U.S. ARMY" Below that on the frame is stamped "United States property" and below this is stamped "NO" and the serial number. Forward on the frame a little to the serial number is stamped "M1911A U. S. Army. I don't see anywhere on the pistol where it says it is a Colt, Remington Rand or Ithaca. I have looked at some pics showing the different markings of these pistols but none have really matched mine. My best guess from researching is that it is a Remington Rand but just was not stamped.
    Any help would be greatly appreciated. I attached some pictures of it.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  2. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Could be a Colt or a R/R but your ser# 1,7XX,XXX isnt close enough. Include a few more numbers. From your pics the beavertail looks wrong as does the trigger. Also the hammer looks to be two tone, parked on one side, shiney on the other. Perhaps you could give some more info on the Ser#? Dont worry, no one will come and arrest you as it is actually not Property of the US gov. Also if you could post some clearer pics in all angles would be good.
  3. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    Thanks for the response. Not worried about serial number. It's #1750XXX. I do feel the trigger and beaver tail have been replaced. Sorry about the pictures. They are from my cell phone will try to get some better pics with actual camera.
    thanks
  4. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    Here are some better pics. Would like to know if it is a Colt or RR.

    Attached Files:

  5. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    1944 Ithaca Gun Co.
  6. GunHugger

    GunHugger Well-Known Member

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    My Ithaca said Ithaca on the left side of the slide. ???
  7. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    My book says the frame is a 1944 Remington Rand. #'s go from 1743847-1816641 Grips do not look like original Colts, hammer, trigger and beavertail have been replaced. Slide is Colt. It's a good shooter.
  8. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    The slide is Colt.

    Ithaca serial #'s for a 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1743847 - 1890503

    The Remington Rand serial #'s for 1944 1911-A1 frame are 1890504 - 2075103

    The Gov't inspectors mark FJA, Lt Col. FJ Atwood was an inspector for Ithaca, US&S and Remington Rand from 1942 - 1944

    That adds to the confusion doesn't it. The NO proof mark isn't in any of my notes.

    There is some doubt about the accuracy of the printed serial numbers. Mr Fred Carpenter has published several articles in the Arms Gazette Magazine concerning the inaccuracies he has found. The latest article was the June 1979 issue.

    When identification of a particular pistol is sought, the inspectors initials be compared with the serial number. It didn't help much in this case. :)
  9. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    I have examinined the markings closer and found just behind the slide grip near the rear of the slide there is a Colt stamp. I have seen the similar Colt stamp on slides between the patend numbers and the Colt PT. F.A. MFG.CO HARTFORD CT USA stamp. This Colt stamp is just behind the slide grip and does not have a ring around it or it may be faded.
    I attached a pic.

    Attached Files:

  10. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    No doubt about the slide being Colt. Our concern at this time is the frame. Check it very closely to see if anything was missed.
  11. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    Here are a couple more pics of the frame around the trigger. On the left side near the magazine release is stamped the letter "P". On the trigger guard is stamped the letter "L". On the right side on the upper trigger guard stamped is "A" and the lower trigger guard is stamped "U". Those are all the markings I can find on the frame other than the ones I have already posted.
    Thanks to everyone for the information!

    Attached Files:

  12. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Shooter, You have been doing this a whole lot longer than me and I want to learn all I can so help me out with this one. I dont know what I am doing wrong to get this info incorrect and need you to point me in the right direction.
    I am using the Collectors guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Third ed. by Charles W. Clawson and am looking at page 145. The range of Ser#'s shown for Remington Rand is what I posted earlier, 1471431-1609528. In the Ser range you posted (1743847 - 1890503) that encompasses the 1944 R/R and the 44-45 Ithaca. The R/R ser#'s you posted (1890504 - 2075103) are correct except it would be for 1944-1945. Jeeesh! I am confusing myself even more that I already are!:D
    Anyhows, Help me out as I am confuseded:confused:
  13. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    GC, that's what I meant by the statement. My notes are over 30 years old and were corrected somewhat by Fred Carpenter. I could have missed something. If Clawson's printing is newer that 1979, I may need to update.

    This is the first one I have wrong if you are right. I'll double check in a few days when I get back home. In the meantime, check another source. We could both be wrong. lol
  14. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    I do appreciate all the information. I have also been trying to read what I can to try and learn more on my 1911. So I guess its safe to say that the slide and frame are from two different manufacturers. My other question is how does this effect the value of the weapon? I'm just curious, I dont plan on selling it because I'm happy to have one even if the parts are different.
  15. OcelotZ3

    OcelotZ3 Former Guest

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    As others have said, it looks like a nice shooter!
  16. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Heres a couple of sites I found that give ser#'s. Ima going to keep looking.

    http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/colt%20production.htm
    http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm

    EDIT... Whilst searching I found an interesting tidbit regarding my Ithaca. My Ser# is 1452***. On both of the sites I listed above, mine would be a 1943 Ithaca.
    In Clawson's book it is listed as a 1944.:confused:Clawson is considered to be THE authority on M1911A1's so I guess mine is a year newer. Lots of mis-information floating around out there. The op's gun is still listed in all three sources as a 1944 R/R.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  17. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member

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    See what I mean. Now, I'll have to change my notes. :D

    There is some misinformation still out there and I don't know if it will ever be corrected. We can only keep trying.
    Thanks for the correction.

    When I wrote the History of the 1911 National Match Pistol for Syd, I caught a mistake there but got it corrected before submitting the article for print. The 1911 will keep you on your toes. :)
  18. Gammetrunner

    Gammetrunner New Member

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    Yeah, I checked several sites as well and it is a bit confusing. I looks like a RR some places and an Ithaca in others. Was it common in this time when these were manufactured to mix and match slides and frames from the factory? Or I guess it could have been done later
  19. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    You have a Colt slide and a Remington Rand frame. It is a parts gun. After the war all of the M1911A1's were sent to various arsenals for refurbishing. They were stripped of all parts which were thrown into bins. Then the bins were cherry picked for the best of the best and then were refurbished and re-parked. Then they re-assembled using all the mish mash parts and came out with a nicely re-furbed M1911A1 pistol. Sometimes you got lucky and all the parts were from one supplier and most times not. Thats the beauty of Mil-spec. You can mix and max most any brand of gun and still have a nice wartime M1911A1.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  20. Double D

    Double D Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Yea, same thing I have. Even though its a parts gun, it holds alot of history. It may not be worth as much as a matched gun, but it still has value and is going up every year. I just appreciate the history so much, I want to pass mine along to the next generation. If it could only talk....
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