Questions on recording in bound book

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by mogunner, May 30, 2012.

  1. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,364
    Location:
    Eastern Missouri
    OK, I'm stumped on what I should do here. Here's the facts.

    (1) I bought a Chinese Type 53 from Omega last year using my C&R, logged the info into my bound book.

    (2) Figured out that the T53 was junk so tore it down, cut the barrel and receiver up.

    Question (1)
    Should I make a notation that the T53 was torn down for parts and why?

    (3) I bought a 1937 Mosin Nagant 91/30 barreled receiver from a guy, sent him a copy of my C&R with payment, he's a seller on *********.

    (4) I used the parts off the T53 along with a few spare parts that I had to build a "mutt" mosin 91/30.

    SO do I record the "Mutt" as a whole gun, or just as a barreled receiver, or as a barreled receiver and THEN as a "built" rifle? I can't find anything about notations for guns that are scrapped, or built from parts etc.
  2. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,031
    Call the BATF and ask how these should be recorded. They really don't bite.
    (And then report back so the rest of us will know....)
  3. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2007
    Messages:
    10,542
    Location:
    NW Florida
    Never, never, never call a government organization and ask a question dealing with anything legal.

    Write them a letter (you know, them paper things, that your grandparents used to use, to take a stamp - NOT an email).

    Get an answer, in writing, on official government agency letterhead.

    "I called ATF, and they said it was okay" is not the world's greatest defense at your trial. "I have this letter from ATF, saying it is okay" gets the judge to say, "Case dismissed".

    You see, the moron that you have on the phone might THINK what he says is right, but he could be wrong. And if you follow his (wrong) advice, and get in trouble, it's your word against The Agency, concerning a hypothetical phone call that you have no proof ever happened.
  4. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,364
    Location:
    Eastern Missouri
    After some intensive research through the ATF regs regarding C&R, it looks as though I may not even want to ask...here's what I found.

    On the T53, once I destroy the receiver, under "Disposition" it should be noted what was done with it, i.e. used for parts, receiver destroyed. Since none of the parts on it matched the rifle's serial number, it no longer has anything to do with whatever firearm I use the parts on. One note is that this was a "no numbers matching" rifle.

    As to the receiver/barrel that I purchased, from what I can see across the regulations is that it appears that the transaction, using my C&R, should have been done by an 01FFL instead. Reason being that the original firearm had been altered to where it no longer met the criteria for a C&R designation, but was still considered a "firearm" due to the serial numbers and therefore the sale should have been done through an 01.

    Now, I know that RGuns was selling complete barreled actions awhile back, and they stated that an 03 was good on those. Classic was selling stripped receivers back when they got in the bunch of machine gun barrels and everyone was wanting to do a heavy barrel Mosin, they originally were selling the receiver to anyone that purchased one but about halfway through suddenly started requiring an 01 or 03 FFL to purchase one.

    So it seems that I'm not the only one confused.
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  5. soundguy

    soundguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,975
    Location:
    florida
    i've seen alot of places selling 'barrelled actions' to c&r, and what you get shipped is usually a poor condition boat ore stock or otherwise damaged stock / cracked stock, intact rifle. IMHO.. legal.. except that you have to deal with removing the stock and trashing it, leaving the bbld action you bought..

    i take it yours did not come with a stock, damaged or otherwise..
  6. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,364
    Location:
    Eastern Missouri
    No, just a stripped (Literally, even had the interrupter/ejector gone) receiver and barrel.

    It's not something that I ever feel the fear of being "caught" on, my C&R colelction consists of a 1942 Mosin 91/30 and the aforementioned T53 and bare 91/30 barrel, if any future purchases are made they will have to be either something inexpensive that I fall into or more Mosin's, but probably not as I tend to shoot my Saiga in 7.62x39 and leave the Mosin at home. Of course the black and blue shoulder has nothing to do with that...
  7. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,400
    BATFE has ruled that receivers and barrelled actions are not C&R eligible, since they are not in anything like the original condition and not collectible. I wouldn't be overly concerned, but be careful in the future. Your 03 FFL is for obtaining items for your collection, not for buying guns to be rebuilt or reworked into some non-original configuration. That might require not only an 01 FFL but a manufacturer's license as well, depending on what you do and if you sell the result.

    Some sellers who have advertised "C&R eligible" receivers or barrelled actions have ceased doing that after BATFE has sent them letters.

    FWIW, on any important issue (where you could get in trouble) ALWAYS get a letter from BATFE HQ (not a field office); nothing else will CYA. This is the same situation that applies to the IRS on tax issues; the BATFE used to be part of IRS and they still follow that procedure, since the whole firearms licensing system is based on tax collection.

    Jim
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  8. soundguy

    soundguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2012
    Messages:
    7,975
    Location:
    florida
    i agree.. if it didn't come with a stock.. it's probably less than kosher.

    as I said. i'd have no qualms about buying a bullet holed cracked stock 'poor' specimen of a gun for my collection, paying only for the 'metal' worth of the piece.. but that is totally different from buying a bbl'd action.
  9. kermit

    kermit New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    you need an extra stock that makes what you bought a rifle? i have a late war/post war stock you can have for postage. it has been stripped of all metal.
  10. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,364
    Location:
    Eastern Missouri
    Well, they finally got around to answering my question. Not too complicated.


    Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your email in which you inquired about recording information in your acquisition and disposition (A&D) record.


    In your email, you indicated that you tore down the Chinese Type 53 C&R rifle for parts. You did not indicate if you destroyed the frame. If you did not destroy the frame, then you must leave the firearm recorded in your A&D as an open disposition (meaning no transfer of the firearm has occurred, thus no information is required to be entered into the disposition side of the A&D record). If you did destroy the frame, then you should record on the disposition side of the A&D the date of destruction and denote the destruction by recording ‘Destroyed’ or by recording a similar term. In addition, ATF recommends you obtain and retain a photo of the destroyed firearm with the serial number. Regarding the new frame, you should record it as received from the person from whom you purchased it.



    There may be State laws that pertain to this proposed activity. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General (www.naag.org) for information on any such requirements.



    We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.
  11. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,400
    Sounds like a reasonable response.

    I know that is the practice required of (and followed by) 01 FFLs when they scrap a gun or break one up for parts, so it should be the same for an 03 FFL.

    Jim
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
Curio & Relics Forum Zastava M57 Questions Jul 22, 2013
Curio & Relics Forum RFI enfield marking questions Apr 17, 2013
Curio & Relics Forum CMP questions Mar 31, 2013
Curio & Relics Forum Questions about C & R Regulations Feb 17, 2011
Curio & Relics Forum mosin nagant-91-30 customizing questions Sep 16, 2009