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Real & Rare or Fake & Worthless PP RZM???????????

6K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  Jim K 
#1 ·
Pictured is a Walther PP RZM. Now I know the Walther PPK RZM really exists and are fairly hard to get...!!!! Is there such a thing as a Walther PP RZM????
WELL, here it is and what do you think? I hope many people put their 2 cents in!

 
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#4 ·
#6 · (Edited)
Hi, One way to tell if it's real is to take off the slide. On the inside of the slide the last three numbers of the serial number should be Scatched somewere inside. ( not stamped)
They can and most offten are rather hard to find. So look very carefully.

This is the sort of pistol that you really have to take to a pro in person.

There are a few more steps in athenticating this pistol and I am only giving one step. To help you get started.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The slide serial only would show that the slide matches the frame, not whether the slide has been tampered with.

I look forward to comments from SSMN and Danny, but IMHO, that gun is a fake, though a pretty good one. The clues are not in the RZM emblem itself, though it is not perfect, but in the other markings. I can't be sure, but that looks like a WaA stamp on the frame that appears to have been tampered with (for obvious reasons?).

There is, I believe, one "artiste" out there who is willing to take nice 90 degree safety guns and make counterfeit RZM or NSKK guns out of them. I guess it is a profitable business.

Jim
 
#10 ·
Some RZM fakes have the emblem wrong, and that is pretty obvious. But fakers learn and (let's face it) they often learn from sites like this. But, as noted before, putting on those emblems requires cleaning and re-marking the slide and that is not as easy to get right as the emblem itself.

Jim
 
#11 · (Edited)
I should have made myself a bit more clear about the scrached ser. on the inside of the slide.
Every known example of the ppk RZM have this unique marks. It has nothing to do with a matched slide and frame in regards to tampering but an oddity found only on the RZM.
This small bit of scrached ser. is something an " artiste " has overlooked in the past.

And wile wer' at it, take a good look at the Z in the stamp. The tic across theZ should be sraight and clear.
 
#12 ·
I did not think there were any until I saw one in Dieter'book. I would not say it is a fake, but the real McCoy & quite valuable. At least 2500 to 3 grand, if not more to the right collector. Everything looks as it should, my 2 cents worth.:)
Kindest Regards
Danny
 
#13 · (Edited)
JimK and Val are correct regarding this particular gun. It is a counterfeit and can be identified as such for many reasons.

First and foremost...there is no such thing as a PP with both RZM and Waffenampt marks. The Waffen (military) and the NSDAP (political) were totally different organizations. It is amazing that someone went to such lengths to clean off the slide, re-etch it and then do so on a Waffenampt gun marking it as a fraud from the get go.

As you can see, the etcing of the RZM stamp is far too deep to match the rest of the factory data. This is what might happen if the crook was not exactly sure what acid strength the factory used or how long to leave it on to do its work.

Also in the photos and much more so when inspecting hands on, this one has clear evidence of refinishing to remove the left slide data including rounded corners and buffing marks not normally left by the factory on high polish guns.

I do believe that there are a few of these out there which are legit, this just does not happen to be one of them. Rankin listed #882 725 and # 278 439 P as both being RZM PPs in his Vol III. Whittington also listed #882 725 in his Vol II as being RZM PP.

A note to grcsat....The last three serial numbers scratched inside the slide of prewar PP/PPKs is not something which was unique to RZM guns. This was done to ALL guns which did not have the serial number stamped on both frame and slide. It was done to allow the matching of slides and frames after being removed from the bluing tank. As one of the final steps in production of PP/PPKs, hand fitting and filing was done to make sure the two major parts of each gun fit well together. Particularly in the area of the rear slide to each side of the hammer. Sharp edges often were present here on the frame and slide and hand filing had to be done to remove them. If anyone has a wartime mil finish PPK, inspect that area and you will see the hand file marks.
Once this work was finished, the frames and slides could no longer be mixed. The had to stay together. And so the scratched numbers inside the slide.

Once serial numbers began to be factory applied to both frame and slide, these interior numbers disappeared. For standard guns, approximately serial number 335 xxx K was the point when that took place. For some special order guns such as the SS contract guns, serial numbers began to be applied to both frame and slide as early as serial number 206 xxx/K at which point the scratched numbers inside the slide were no longer to be found.
 
#14 ·
Here are the pics I origionally posted of mine. Mine is not an RZ gun, and I never ment to imply it as one. My Father in law brought this one back from Germany, and I know it is real. I can take more close ups if any one wants.
Thanks,
Ed
 

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#17 · (Edited)
Worst case of thought is the slide came from another pistol. Maybe in the barracks cleaning of weapons it got switched around. I will say the frame has been reblued, as you can tell by the barrel. No one knows for sure on these things. Just think about the cost of stripping the slide, rebluing it & then having every part etched by acid. That to me is just to much time & monies to produce a fake weapon that would not be profitable on resale.
By the way the scratched last 3 digits don't mean a thing. That is the most easily part of faking a slide.
Danny
Also the brown grips & mag ext were used on pistols that came from shooting matches. If another match was held later on, the grips were removed and placed on the new winner of the match. This was followed in unison with the prized pistol.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Well, I don't see how a WaA frame and an RZM slide could get "switched around" in a shooting match; combined military/party matches might have happened but I don't think so. Plus such a swap would be a bit hard for the shooters to explain the their respective armorers. A faker, though, might have used any handy frame/slide to put together a fake.

Would it be worth it? If there is possibly $2000 or more riding on that RZM mark, sure. Once the faker was set up, each gun would be easier to do, and probably better. Nor would the lettering necessarily be acid etched. A Pantograph turns out about the same type of work and EDM or laser work would pass all but very close scrutiny. The later requires almost no effort once the pattern is set up in the computer; and that is done simply by simply photographing the original mark and moving it to the laser engraver output.

Jim
 
#20 · (Edited)
I did not mean while in a shooting match. Maybe before it was a commom soldiers weapon & thats when the slides got mixed up. I just cannot see spending such a great deal of time & monies to make only a fraction of it back. We are all novices here here on this forum, We were not there when this stuff of faking was going on & I think we all have an opinion on this weapon.
If I was going into faking a pistol, it would be the big dollar guns like the Himmler presentation or any of the presentation ones, not taking an army accepted one ( notice the WaA is not on the slide) worth around 1500 & proballey done many years ago when prices were low on these Walthers to butcher it for an extra 2-3 hundred. Thats my opinion & sticking with it.:cool:
Danny
Note: Did anyone notice the 90 degree safety? Very strange for Waffenampted PP.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Danny,
The temptation here was not to make a 200 to 300 profit by faking a PP Rzm. An average condition waffenampt PP can be had for $500 and I'm sure much less some years back, while an RZM PP of which three others are known to exist would sell for ten times that price or more. The lure was a $5,000 profit for a little time spent in the basement with buffer, acid and a bluing tank. Not a big investment for potential large profit. One of the crooks mistakes was to get so wrapped up in his slide work that he neglected to remove the Waffenampt from the frame.
 
#22 ·
David you should keep a look at auction sites & see what Waffenampted PP's and PPK's are going for. 500 would not touch one.
Danny
 
#24 ·
i have a version of jim rankins book in german showing an pp rzm with a 359 frame and rzm marked slide . looks very similar to gun displayed here . pp rzm guns would have to have been made one at a time produced with a new logo. the other possibility is mismatched slide and frame . putting a micrometer to slide would end the debate once and forall. last note , fakes cost more to make than the real guns , so perhaps one should call these embellished weapons done by the factory or others . when these show up so do the experts and debaters. let the games begin.
 
#26 ·
The gun you refer to is a PPK and is in Vol III English version as well. Along with a lot of speculation as to how it got that way. The gun which is the subject of this thread is a PP and has been around for a long time. It was first reported to be in Germany a few years ago by Dieter, then showed up in this country, in Atlanta. It was for sale with no takers and a hands on inspection found the Schutzzeichen to be badly done, far too deep as shown in the pictures. Discussions among experts on other sites reached a clear consensus that it was over buffed, reblued, badly done and fake. Same as seems to be the consensus here except for Danny.
 
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