Real & Rare or Fake & Worthless PP RZM???????????

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by denny 714, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. denny 714

    denny 714 Member

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    Pictured is a Walther PP RZM. Now I know the Walther PPK RZM really exists and are fairly hard to get...!!!! Is there such a thing as a Walther PP RZM????
    WELL, here it is and what do you think? I hope many people put their 2 cents in!

    [​IMG][/IMG][​IMG][/IMG]
  2. muddober

    muddober Active Member

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    I know very little about Walthers and your's sure looks good to me. I see nothing that would suggest anything fake about.

    Ron
  3. schooner.207

    schooner.207 Member

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    what is the serial no?
  4. carver

    carver Moderator

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  5. papawed

    papawed New Member

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    I have a 9 mm that looks like that one. I don't think it is fake.
    Danny is the guy you want to hear from . I just checked and he has been on in the last 24 hours.
    He will surely let you know what you want to hear.
    Good Luck,
    Ed
  6. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    Hi, One way to tell if it's real is to take off the slide. On the inside of the slide the last three numbers of the serial number should be Scatched somewere inside. ( not stamped)
    They can and most offten are rather hard to find. So look very carefully.

    This is the sort of pistol that you really have to take to a pro in person.

    There are a few more steps in athenticating this pistol and I am only giving one step. To help you get started.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  7. denny 714

    denny 714 Member

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    This is to PAPAWED,
    Hi Ed,
    is there any way you could post a couple of pictures of your PP 9m/m??? Also is it marked with the RZM stamp???

    Thanks
    Denny
  8. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The slide serial only would show that the slide matches the frame, not whether the slide has been tampered with.

    I look forward to comments from SSMN and Danny, but IMHO, that gun is a fake, though a pretty good one. The clues are not in the RZM emblem itself, though it is not perfect, but in the other markings. I can't be sure, but that looks like a WaA stamp on the frame that appears to have been tampered with (for obvious reasons?).

    There is, I believe, one "artiste" out there who is willing to take nice 90 degree safety guns and make counterfeit RZM or NSKK guns out of them. I guess it is a profitable business.

    Jim
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  9. valbehaved

    valbehaved Member

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    I think, Jim is right, it is a waffenamt there on the frame.
    Also, look at the lower edge of the slide - it looks rounded a bit and could have been refinished.
    That RZM logo, though, looks pretty darn nicely made with the correct matted background..
  10. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Some RZM fakes have the emblem wrong, and that is pretty obvious. But fakers learn and (let's face it) they often learn from sites like this. But, as noted before, putting on those emblems requires cleaning and re-marking the slide and that is not as easy to get right as the emblem itself.

    Jim
  11. grcsat

    grcsat Active Member

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    I should have made myself a bit more clear about the scrached ser. on the inside of the slide.
    Every known example of the ppk RZM have this unique marks. It has nothing to do with a matched slide and frame in regards to tampering but an oddity found only on the RZM.
    This small bit of scrached ser. is something an " artiste " has overlooked in the past.

    And wile wer' at it, take a good look at the Z in the stamp. The tic across theZ should be sraight and clear.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  12. Danny

    Danny Member

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    I did not think there were any until I saw one in Dieter'book. I would not say it is a fake, but the real McCoy & quite valuable. At least 2500 to 3 grand, if not more to the right collector. Everything looks as it should, my 2 cents worth.:)
    Kindest Regards
    Danny
  13. SSMN

    SSMN Member

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    JimK and Val are correct regarding this particular gun. It is a counterfeit and can be identified as such for many reasons.

    First and foremost...there is no such thing as a PP with both RZM and Waffenampt marks. The Waffen (military) and the NSDAP (political) were totally different organizations. It is amazing that someone went to such lengths to clean off the slide, re-etch it and then do so on a Waffenampt gun marking it as a fraud from the get go.

    As you can see, the etcing of the RZM stamp is far too deep to match the rest of the factory data. This is what might happen if the crook was not exactly sure what acid strength the factory used or how long to leave it on to do its work.

    Also in the photos and much more so when inspecting hands on, this one has clear evidence of refinishing to remove the left slide data including rounded corners and buffing marks not normally left by the factory on high polish guns.

    I do believe that there are a few of these out there which are legit, this just does not happen to be one of them. Rankin listed #882 725 and # 278 439 P as both being RZM PPs in his Vol III. Whittington also listed #882 725 in his Vol II as being RZM PP.

    A note to grcsat....The last three serial numbers scratched inside the slide of prewar PP/PPKs is not something which was unique to RZM guns. This was done to ALL guns which did not have the serial number stamped on both frame and slide. It was done to allow the matching of slides and frames after being removed from the bluing tank. As one of the final steps in production of PP/PPKs, hand fitting and filing was done to make sure the two major parts of each gun fit well together. Particularly in the area of the rear slide to each side of the hammer. Sharp edges often were present here on the frame and slide and hand filing had to be done to remove them. If anyone has a wartime mil finish PPK, inspect that area and you will see the hand file marks.
    Once this work was finished, the frames and slides could no longer be mixed. The had to stay together. And so the scratched numbers inside the slide.

    Once serial numbers began to be factory applied to both frame and slide, these interior numbers disappeared. For standard guns, approximately serial number 335 xxx K was the point when that took place. For some special order guns such as the SS contract guns, serial numbers began to be applied to both frame and slide as early as serial number 206 xxx/K at which point the scratched numbers inside the slide were no longer to be found.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  14. papawed

    papawed New Member

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    Here are the pics I origionally posted of mine. Mine is not an RZ gun, and I never ment to imply it as one. My Father in law brought this one back from Germany, and I know it is real. I can take more close ups if any one wants.
    Thanks,
    Ed

    Attached Files:

  15. papawed

    papawed New Member

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    Guess I should have looked at mine. there are significant differences when I compare the pics. I still like mine.
    Ed
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