Hi guys and gals,
Just got my xl 650 put together and got a question for you all. But first the technicals:
Handgun: Glock 21 Gen 4
projectile: FMJ 230 gr
Powder: Longhorn
Primer: Remington 2.5 Lrg
Case: Remington 45 ACP
Powder load: consistently between 6.7 - 6.9
Reference: Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 9th Edition
Question: I fired 1 round with no magazine. The recoil felt pretty weak and case fell out the magazine well. The side of the case was black with residue. What have I done wrong? Should I bump up the powder charge to 7.1?
Go for it! The Hornady book says 7.4 gr is the max, Lyman says 7.0, and Speer doesn't list that powder at all. Go figure. I've had a similar problem with 9mm Luger, using low to medium loads. I surmised that the residue is caused by having too low a charge, so that the case doesn't expand enough to properly seal the mouth of the case against the bore. Upping the charge a little bit cured the problem. It also restored my Hi-Power to its normal 25' ejection distance.
What are you using to measure your grain weight? Some digital scales are prone to being flakey.
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Do you have a beam scale? Do you use a level to ensure the scale is level (both x & y).
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+- .1grain could be the .2gr variance. Maybe the parallax if beam scale is used is why you see .3grn. If digital, the best the last digit can ever be is a XXX5 and you may be in that window that makes it seem like .3
@drymag: It's a Scheels Outfitters digital Unit. It has a built in bubble level which I have centered. So am I taking it correctly I should invest in a beam style scale?
@rawright54: That was what I was thinking from what I read that there wasn't enough charge to expand the case properly. Do you think a lose crimp might also be a factor?
@drymag: It's a Scheels Outfitters digital Unit. It has a built in bubble level which I have centered. So am I taking it correctly I should invest in a beam style scale?
I think it is wise to have a beam scale anytime you are using a digital scale so each one can validate the other.
Personally I prefer the digital when loading off an AP because when I sample my powder throws, I pull the brass after it has been flared, place it on the scale to tare it, then back on the shell plate, throw my charge, then weight the case with powder.
@drymag: It's a Scheels Outfitters digital Unit. It has a built in bubble level which I have centered. So am I taking it correctly I should invest in a beam style scale?
@rawright54: That was what I was thinking from what I read that there wasn't enough charge to expand the case properly. Do you think a lose crimp might also be a factor?
I hadn't thought about a loose crimp before. But now that I do, I don't think that's the problem. We use a crimp to hold the bullet in place while it's being slammed around by recoil in the magazine. Its purpose is not to hold the bullet in the case until the pressure rises enough to expand the case, though a tighter crimp would have that side effect. Getting the powder charge just right is probably the better way to achieve what you want.
+/- 0.1 gr for many powder drops isn't that surprising and your load isn't that light IMO. Be sure you use check weights to validate your scale's accuracy. You didn't specify your bullet OAL, but if you are running SAAMI max, you might back it down to 2.25 or so. That will kick up the pressure slightly without changing the powder charge. Finally, be sure to measure your crimp if you think that might be an issue. Get it to around 0.47 (use the knife-edge of your caliper and measure as close to the mouth of the case as possible) and don't overcrimp-just remove the flare.
I hadn't thought about a loose crimp before. But now that I do, I don't think that's the problem. We use a crimp to hold the bullet in place while it's being slammed around by recoil in the magazine. Its purpose is not to hold the bullet in the case until the pressure rises enough to expand the case, though a tighter crimp would have that side effect. Getting the powder charge just right is probably the better way to achieve what you want.
+/- 0.1 gr for many powder drops isn't that surprising and your load isn't that light IMO. Be sure you use check weights to validate your scale's accuracy. You didn't specify your bullet OAL, but if you are running SAAMI max, you might back it down to 2.25 or so. That will kick up the pressure slightly without changing the powder charge. Finally, be sure to measure your crimp if you think that might be an issue. Get it to around 0.47 (use the knife-edge of your caliper and measure as close to the mouth of the case as possible) and don't overcrimp-just remove the flare.
When you say to use check weights, are you referring to the 50g calibrating weights that came with the scale? Because I re-calibrate it every time I use it, per its instructions... I am also going to purchase a Dillon Eliminator scale as soon as I can work it into my budget...
When you say to use check weights, are you referring to the 50g calibrating weights that came with the scale? Because I re-calibrate it every time I use it, per its instructions... I am also going to purchase a Dillon Eliminator scale as soon as I can work it into my budget...
If the case is blackened/sooty/dirty, then the load is too low in pressure to expand the case to seal the chamber.
If the case dropped out the mag well, the charge is too light.
I believe that any reloading manual will cover this.
That's pretty much the idea I had from reading the Hornady book. But it only very briefly discussed sooty/dirty cases and it was with rifle loads and mentioned headspace and a couple other things. I didn't want to bias anyone's opinions by saying too much to get the widest array of thoughts. But I think we're all on the same page. I'm going to try the 7.1 gn load when I've got some time Sunday or Monday and I'll report back to tell you all how it went! Thx for everyone's help. Especially to 76Highboy who sent me a few links that were helpful!
Re: beam scale
I gave up on beams back in the late '70s and never regretted it.
Check weights are good, if you plot the check weight vs. the scale reading and use that to "correct" the readings--if there is even any deviation. Using two scale to compare each other is worthless--which is the correct one?
People worry too much about the exact weight, when they should be more concerned with the weight range that produces the best accuracy and then practicing enough to get that good.
Any "problem" with weight variations only shows up at very long range, if then. For most handguns, that range is north of 100 yards.
IF you use a beam, it must be mounted off the bench and at eye level to eliminate parallax. There is no parallax reading a digital screen.
press, the 50 gr weight is where to start and it tells you the scale is calibrated for that weight. It is nice to have a set that includes weights similar to the powder charges you commonly weigh. We could call that calibrate and verify. Of course you could simply verify the lighter weights on a beam scale.
FWIW, I use the Dillon D-terminator and it is a great electronic IMO. It too only has a 50 gr calibration weight though.
17pcs Scale Calibration Weight Set includes 100-50-20-10-5-2-1g,500-200-100mg+++
This weight set is perfect for checking the accuracy of your digital, balance or mechanical scales.
Class: OIML Class M2
Suitable for general laboratory, commercial, and educational use
17 Weights are included as well as accessories:
- 1x 100g
- 1x 50g
- 2x 20g
- 1 x 10g
- 1 x 5g
- 2 x 2g
- 1 x 1g
- 1 x 500mg
- 2 x 200mg
- 1 x 100mg
- 1 x 50 mg
- 2 x 20 mg
- 1 x 10 mg
A class M2 weight is very accurate, far more so than we need to be for reloading. But it should be mentioned that g is not gr. Scientific scales are designed to use metric weights, since grains and drams and such make the arithmetic difficult. To use these weights to verify a scale - beam balance or electronic - a correction factor has to be applied. Since 1 gr = 64.80 mg, placing a 200 mg test weight on a reloading scale should result in a reading of 3.09 gr. A 5 g (=5000 mg) weight would read 77.16 gr.
It's tedious, but it's a great way to check the accuracy of any weighing device.
So an update: I've upped the charge to 6.9-7.1. The sooty appearance of the fired case is a lil better but I'm getting damaged cases. Hornady shows COL to be 1.210 but the federal factory loads measure at 1.269. My loads measure in at 1.256.
I've read in plenty of places that dings and dents are fine to resize and reload. But to beware of nicks and scratches as they lead to split cases. What counts as unusable nicks and scratches to you experienced reloaders?
So an update: I've upped the charge to 6.9-7.1. The sooty appearance of the fired case is a lil better but I'm getting damaged cases. Hornady shows COL to be 1.210 but the federal factory loads measure at 1.269. My loads measure in at 1.256.
I've read in plenty of places that dings and dents are fine to resize and reload. But to beware of nicks and scratches as they lead to split cases. What counts as unusable nicks and scratches to you experienced reloaders?
Check the notes at the bottom of the page; Hornady says that the listed COLs are for min-spec chambers, but that handloaders may need to load longer to feed reliably. The spec lists the max COL as 1.275" so yours are within safe limits.
For nicks and dings, I consider anything that causes a sharp change in dimension to be a concern, but dents that are fairly smooth I usually let go through the sizing die. In materials subjected to sudden changes in stress, we see a phenomenon called stress concentration. It's as if all the stress imposed on the entire body focuses on a single point, causing that point to fail. It's the reason we bevel the edges of a concrete slab, and why we fillet a welded joint.
Anything that causes a sharp change is potentially a point of failure, so I avoid them. A shallow, rounded dent in the wall of a case will probably be removed by full length sizing, and if a few thousandths are still present, the next firing will likely smooth it out. A pin-prick or sharp cornered dent in a case wall will likely become a split when next fired, so I pitch those. Recently I've been seeing some 9mm cases that exhibit a sharply rectangular dent in the mouth of the case, about 1/8" wide and 1/16" deep, with perfectly squared corners at the bottom. These I pitch immediately, as I don't think anything will fix them. Even if I could straighten them, the work hardening in that region of the case would surely cause a premature failure. It isn't worth the risk to try to save every case.
Where are you receiving the damage with the new loads? From the case being ejected, or it landing on the ground badly? My Hi-Power likes loads that toss the cases about 25' - 35' sideways; anything less gives me the heavy soot you've been seeing, and the cases drop at my feet. I've never had one jam, but the performance is pretty wimpy and accuracy goes down the drain.
The damage is coming from the ejecting process. The 6.9 - 7.1 charge is barely clearing the ejection port. The charge is good, the crimp is good, so the problem has got to be the c.o.l. don't you think? Or do you think it's the longshot powder? Perhaps it's too slow burning? I'd love to get some pistol powder but that's a dry well around here. ..
I've Heard the gen 4 glocks like a heavy load since they have the duel spring setup now but there isn't much info about reloads that I've been able to verify with anyone. Is anyone reloading for the gen 4s?
I wouldn't suspect it to be a COL problem, since by the time they eject, all rounds are the same length - an empty case. The COL affects the feeding, but shouldn't affect ejection. I suppose it's possible that the incoming round is tapping the ejecting shell, maybe the spring in the magazine is too strong and pressing the next round upward with enough force to dent the ejecting case before the ejector lets it fly. Check that by looking at the last case fired; if it's okay, this is an area worth investigating. If not, try loading them a little bit shorter, just in case...
But I'm no gunsmith, and I don't know Glocks. Hopefully someone smarter than me will wander by soon who has seen and solved the same problem.
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