Remington Rand .45 Cal Demonstration Model - Worth

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by BBQFISH, Aug 18, 2010.

  1. BBQFISH

    BBQFISH New Member

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    I received a hand me down 1943 Remington Rand from my grandfather with the only marking being a number of 132 on the right side. Left side has Remington Rand Inc, Syracuse,NY, USA. My understanding this may have been a demonstration model for the company. Is there any way to determine if this was a demonstration model who was it presented to (number 132 must tell us something). Any confirmation on the demonstration model story being true would be welcome.

    Appears to have never been fired. No rust.

    Any information would be appreciated.
    BBQFISH
  2. woolleyworm

    woolleyworm Active Member

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    Have any pics? Does it function and have you fired it?
  3. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Active Member Supporting Member

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    Ser#s from 1-17250 are 1912 Colts and then there is Remington UMC 1918 with Ser#s from 1-13152. Odd. There was alot of mixing of parts back then.
    In 1943 the R/R Ser#s ranged from 916405-1041404 and then 1279699-1441430 and 1471431-1609528.
  4. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

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    Where are the markings you mention? Is the "Remington Rand" on the slide and the serial number on the frame?
    If so, what other marks are there on the frame? Could be that it is a built gun with an after-market frame.
  5. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    It is possible. According to Clawson, Remington-Rand made some demonstration guns numbered from 1 to about 145. That is aside from the approximately 100 experimental guns with "ERRS" numbers.

    Those guns were not numbered in the R-R government numbering series that GunClinger cites, were not marked as U.S. Property, and were not delivered to the government. They were later presented to employees and officers of the company.

    If possible, can your grandfather document how he came by the gun, if he was a R-R employee or got it from someone who was. This is a case where there is a high possibility of fakery, so any documentation will be very valuable.

    If genuine and documented, I would WAG the value at $10000, maybe more.

    Jim
  6. BBQFISH

    BBQFISH New Member

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    Here are some pics of the gun and the markings.

    Attached Files:

  7. RJay

    RJay Active Member

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    Whoa, what are those grind marks to the rear of trigger, factory or did someone try and make it more user friendly?
  8. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Active Member Supporting Member

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    Looks like something I'd do with my Dremel.:eek:
  9. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Active Member Supporting Member

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    Jim, Is this Clawson a reference book? If so, where can I get one?
  10. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    The book is Collector's Guiide to Colt .45 Service Pistols, Models of 1911 and 1911A1 , by Charles W. Clawson. The latest (AFAIK) is the Third Edition.

    I don't know where your grandfather got the gun, but if it was claimed to be an R-R demonstrator, it is almost certainly a fake. There are a number of reasons for saying that:

    1. The slide marking is of the second type, not likely to have been used on a demonstration model.

    2. The Parkerizing is too good, even for a pistol that did not see service.

    3. The Parkerizing is post-WWII; it is the wrong color for WWII Parkerizing, and the frame and slide don't match.

    4. The slide markings are shallow and blurred, characteristic of a slide that has been polished down to remove rust, then Parkerized.

    5. The machining on the frame does not match any WWII production M1911A1; the frame could be Brazilian.

    6. The stocks are Colt; R-R used Keyes grips.

    7. The numbering is crude and out of line; R-R did a better job even on the demo guns.

    Better pics would probably turn up more discrepancies, but I think that is enough.

    Jim
  11. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Active Member Supporting Member

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  12. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    In recent years, 1911 frames made overseas have shown up in the U.S. They either have no markings or a very lightly stamped number, which is easily removed. The "R-R demonstrator" makes a perfect story for those guns. Any number up to 150 can be put on, no other markings are needed. R-R slides are fairly common, so the two can be combined into something of more value than the parts alone.

    The one shown on coolgunsite shows all the characteristics of the OP's gun, including the late R-R address, and has a GI shipping box, which is itself a fake. Further, why would a demo have a shipping box with a stock number on it. They were never shipped, and never belonged to the government.

    IMHO, both guns are fake.

    Jim
  13. TheGunClinger

    TheGunClinger Active Member Supporting Member

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    Rats! I thought I was onto something there.:D
  14. BBQFISH

    BBQFISH New Member

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    This gun has been in my grandfathers safe since 1960.
    We're they faking them since the 1960's?

    He is since passed away so I have no way to determine where or how he came into it's possession. I am working family to determine any knowledge they may have about this gun.

    Thanks for all of the information.

    I will keep researching.
    BBQFISH
  15. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    AFAIK, they were not faking those guns in the 1960's because the frames were not available, but sometimes family stories do get confused over the years. As I said before, documented proof that such a gun is what it is purported to be would be necessary, otherwise it is simply a R-R slide on a frame of dubious origin. If I am wrong, I will readily admit it, but it will take some hard evidence.

    Jim
  16. Bill DeShivs

    Bill DeShivs Active Member

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    Often I have to tell someone that their grandfather's knife, that he carried in WW2, was made by a company that started business in 1957. Memories are not reliable.
  17. Silver72

    Silver72 New Member

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    The only thing Clawson's books mention is about test of all models of Ithaca, Rem Rand, US&S copies of Colt's 1911A1 is the inter changeability of parts in the guns. All guns had to prove reliability to function correctly with parts selected at random from all the other samples. If your gun started life as a Remington Rand someone made changes to it along the way.

    Here is a picture of various guns frame markings.

    I have only one RR left in my collection and the picture is not to swift as it was from the days of 35 mm film, not digital, and it is marked with British proofs when it traveled thru that country to the States.

    Sorry for the late answer to your question, but I've been away, one might say.

    Attached Files:

  18. 3/2 STA SS

    3/2 STA SS Active Member

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    I used to have a ''lunchbox gun'' that no numbers on it because it was hobbled together at the factory with '' a part from here and a part from there''. They do exsist the numbers just look kinda fishy.
  19. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    While there were undoubtedly "lunchbox" guns, I have come to believe that the term is most often an excuse for any kind of mismatched pistol, with an odd frame or one with the serial number and markings illegally removed. By saying it is a "lunchbox" gun, the seller avoids the issue of removing or altering the serial number (there would never have been one) while asking a price that the gun would not justify as a jumble of parts.

    Jim
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