Rifle for shots up to 1000yds

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting Forum' started by kings, Aug 17, 2006.

  1. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    JLA, your reference was a bit vague; overdone? How can one have too much rifle, or too good a dog?'
    I suggest, the best is none too good enough, anything less, is lacking.
  2. LongRifles

    LongRifles New Member

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    Stash,

    thanks for the kind remarks.

    If you have a stiffy for falling blocks there is someone I encourage you to talk to.

    My old boss, Cyle Miller. 2nd gen owner of Miller Arms.

    Cyle was the VP of manufacturing for Dakota Arms/Nesika prior to the "big ugly" in July of 2006.

    Miller Arms is quite arguably the most over engineered, over acheiving falling block single shot out there.

    I mean that in a good way. It's pretty nice stuff.

    Dern nice.

    Cyle is in St Onge, SD. Give him a call. He's listed.

    Again, thanks for the remarks. This bench and tool box represents my reloading room at the house. I'm bummed though. No one said anything about the two grand in Mitutoyo micrometers sitting off to the left there.

    Here's real work getting done:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2008
  3. LongRifles

    LongRifles New Member

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    While some may view my taste in bolt guns as "too much" or gawdy.
    I promise you these are working guns. Not trailer queens who spend life on a bench.

    My M-40 wanna be shown above is the best example.

    I've thrown this rifle off of two story buildings.
    I've pitched it across parking lots.
    I've stood on it.
    I've beat the piss out of it

    Yet it still keeps chugging along.

    There's also a $2500 dollar piece of glass sitting on it that has a chromoly steel body built specifically to withstand this kind of abuse.

    There's more to that gun than what you see also. The stock has been heavily modified internally. It's a baseball bat now for all intents and purposes.

    I have another rifle that I've built for a friend that is this way. It served well over here in Iraq during the first two years of the war. Its a Winchester P64 M70 with a one piece billet bolt and a scope mount TIG welded to the action.

    It's also taken its share of spills and bumps yet it keeps on kicking out 1/3moa groups no matter what.

    My 22-250 has its own little history. That's the black stocked rifle with the shorter barrel shown above. I built that rifle start to finish in 7 hours. It is an example of every way you should not build a rifle that is meant to be highly accurate.

    I did it to prove some points to people getting on my nerves.

    No recoil lug
    No bedding
    It's a repeater
    It's got a plunger eject
    It's got a muzzle brake.

    This gun shouldn't shoot according to many.

    .098" spread for five shots with factory loaded black hills 55 grain ballistic tips. It's most accurate gun I own.

    The big boomer there is a 300 338 Lapua Magnum.

    My 4400fps Prairie dog killing machine. Yes, you can sling a 125 grainer that fast.
    You can also wipe a dog mound off the map.

    The green monster is my 6.5-284 heavy deer gun. 600 yard shots are easy when you have a cartridge designed for 1000 yard shooting. V max bullets are naaaasty on white tails.

    Anyways, as a gun maker I have an obligation to build the best product I can for a customer. It'll be a hard sell to ever convince me this is a bad way to operate.

    Again, thanks for the kind words guys.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2008
  4. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Longrifles: Saw the mikes, but, as they are the same Carbide Anviled, green 'C Clamps', that I thought everyone used, it came as no surprise, really!
    But the tool box, that is different; My Gertsner, I waited 50 years for, and cried, when I finally inherited it, not that I wanted the box, so much, but for the fact that it cost me my grandfather, and my dad, for it to arrive here!
    My tastes run to wood, over any other medium, in rifles, furniture, etc, and the box on your bench is a piece of extremely high quality; Kennedy, Craftsman, Snap On, a hundred others, can not do as much, so simply stated, and well executed, even if price is set aside.
    The big old T&D Maker's box, on my bench will one day, belong to my Grandson, Giovanni, and I hope he enjoys just dusting, and waxing, and loving on it half as much as I do!
    Part of it is provenance, as my Grandpa was the major male figure, in my growing up; I thoght, for years, the moon rose, on his shoulders.
    He's been dead nearly forty years, yet the sights, and smells of him, are still close by, and familiar; he was my mentor, my judge, and my model.
    "One good job, done right", a thing I heard, from my youth, still rings clear; finish this project, with honor, before moving on to the next.
    He had a sense of integrity next to one; if you offered a dollar, you got a buck and a quarter's worth of value, from him, as it should be.
    Just part of my 'hang up', on the 'old ways', but, I think, relevant.
    I do no job, "good enough", only "right"; if I must do less than my best work, I need to 'opt out' of the situation, and move on.
    I guess this is the difference, between professionals, and tradesmen.
    To the subject of dogs, my other passion, a hour ago, about 03:15, my bitch was in my face, wanting to go out; she did what she needed to do, and is again, asleep, while I sit here, typing this; angry, no, tired, yes, but she is good to me, and for me, and if all I have to do is get up, and go out with her, that's pretty small change, for an animal, of her stature; she has litrally changed the lives of more than a dozen other animals, by her presence, and teaching.
    Have a wonderful New Year!
  5. Tom Militano

    Tom Militano New Member

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    We could use a lot more men like your grandfather today Stash.
  6. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Tom, read the previous post, or two, from Longrifle; you may just have met one!
    He's likely got only one or two 'set up' indicators, that read in thousandths, but I'll bet, a dozen that are 'tenth reading' (.0001") for those of you who did not grow up, or don't now 'live' in a machine shop.
    That is how you get started; with every thing either concentric, or perpendicular, to it's mating parts, if you really want accuracy!
    Often, it takes a toolmakers skills to simply build the fixturing, before there is any way to begin the job, because no product is gonna be closer to the 'split', in dimension, ie 'zero' tolerance, than the tools on which it was made.
    And the point he made about the best possible work; this was my Grandfather, speaking through another mouth, as I read it!
    Tom, they be out there, our job is to find them!
    Look to our schools, today, and today's parents, if you question this; we sell millions of dollars in books that 'Teach The Test', not the subject, and millions of parents buy them, to get Johnny thru the fifth grade!
    Here's the scary part.
    I had the wife of a young Mechanical Engineer, a couple with whom I am close, call, to settle an arguement they were having, about whether it was possible to calculate 'square roots', without a calculator! My tastless. offhand answer was "how was the Golden Gate Bridge, or the Panama Canal, constructed?" "With a freaking PENCIL!"
    Then I spent about twenty minutes showing her husband the 'Modified Newtonian Method' over the phone.
    High school 'plane, and spherical geometry', 'Trigonometry', and believe it or not, 'English', were the subjects I worked hardest in, the first two, because I loved the subject matter, and saw practical application, the third because I needed four years of passing grades, to graduate.
    The geometry, and trig, are 'shop math'; english, the way to communicate, with your clients; screw any of these up, and you are out of business!
    Get active in your community, and insist on 'teaching the subject, not the test', and save the long range rifle for 'extreme circumstances'; with good education, and time, the prices might actually come down!
    Few choose, today, to work in a hostile (I actually gotta DO something?) environment, and the gunshops are all of this; the 'flip side' is, I have been out of the Army, since 1973, and have amassed a total of eleven 'unemployed days', in that time, eleven, of which, were spent fishing, with a buddy, because I needed it; some 'down time' after three 'back to back' tours, in RVN.
    Might be something to be said for the educational system, as it is, today!
  7. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    stash, LongRifles, i apologize, if it makes sense in my own mind, i tend to not be so clear about things. LongRifles, i really think you do grade A work, that is professionalism at its finest. Everyone i know would hock an "unnecessary to shooting" bodypart for one of your examples above, including me. What i meant by "overdone" was, what you guys offer to the sport is generally a market for shooters that either have 1 hell of a job, or they make a living out of the sport. As a practicing gunsmith beginning his own journey to professionalism, my reasoning behind some of the comments i have posted is this. Most shooters in this sport, including me, are average, hardworking, individuals that have families to feed and bills to pay, and a day job that just barely allows them to eat and keep the bills paid. let alone fork over 6500 bucks for thier dream rifle. So, my area of interest lie with getting the most out of a production grade, or even a mil-surp grade weapon. My interests are in trying to open a "more accurate option" for shooters on a tight budget. While, most of the rifles i service wouldn't even come close to minute of angle shots @ 1000 yds. They will accomplish what most shooters are capable of. One example of this is the mosin 91/30 i accurized for my dad last christmas, when i finished that rifle it would shoot 1/2" groups @ 100 yds with handloads worked out specifically for that rifle, and just a couple weeks ago my dad dropped a 340 puound feral hog @ just over 300 yds. My dad and I have probably 400 bucks invested in that rifle in real money, all work was performed in my bedroom @ my desk in my spare time, mostly with hand tools. Sorry im rambling now, Dont get me wrong, you guys do beautiful work and offer a great service to the sport. keep up the fine work.
  8. USMC-03

    USMC-03 New Member

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    Gentlemen,

    This has by far been one of the most interesting threads. Thought I'd throw out my two long range rifles. Neither are in the top competitor class but for now at least get me in the game.

    The one on top is a model 70 Winchester in .308 originally set up for across the course highpower matches. I found it several years ago at a local gun shop for about $500 and put another $200 or so making it fit me. It has a McMillian Prone stock that I had converted to left hand and a Mo's rear sight. I believe the barrel is a Krieger.

    The bottom rifle is an M1903A1 with a Redfield target sight on the receiver and a Dockendorf crosshair tube on front. I did a bit of horse trading for it 15 years ago at a gun show mainly as a collector but I used it in my first few 1,000 yard matches. With good hand loads it really shoots surprisingly well at that range even if I'm in no danger of winning with it.

    Attached Files:

  9. USMC, I must admit to just a wee bit of envy (drooling!) over that 1903A1. :D
  10. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    me too USMC, i haven't as of yet had the pleasure of delving into such a fine example of military history with my notepad and pencil close at hand... truly are works of art.
  11. USMC-03

    USMC-03 New Member

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    Thanks, Pistol and JLA.

    Like I said, I've never been in any danger of winning any matches when competing against modern technology but usually get an honorable mention for nostalgia. One nice thing, I have the same Redfield rear sight on my hunting rifle, also a Springfield. Always on the lookout for 1903's that haven't been screwed up to bad when sporterized so I can either restore them into military form or turn them into a target rifle.

    In the next few years I'm hoping to build a good custom rifle similar to those LongRifles has displayed that will keep up with the pack. Until then I'll shoot what I've got, learn what I can and have fun doing it.
  12. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Marine, we need to go fishing.
    Everybody I know, and shoot with, knows my story; it's about shooting, not winning, or, in different terms, fishing, not catching!
    When the 'shooting' part ceases to be fun, I will quit the sport, with no regard to the 'winning' issues; for me, how I spend a Sunday is important, and a good day with the dogs trumps a Trophy, won in stress.
    This is my approach; pick your own poison!
    I shoot single shot, falling block, rimfire rifles, with all their disadvantges; ie, 2 piece stocks, etc, almost exclusively; and shoot well, in spite of the handicap.
    The only person I have to shoot against, is ME.
    If I take a match, WOW! But if I had a good day, according to my personal 'bests', it's all I really came out to do, so I am not in any way, shape, or form, disappoiinted.
    My gear is the best I can afford, but everybody has a budget, and mine is tight (I support three households), so there are those with better equipment, at the line. No matter.
    On a good day, I will shoot with all of that money, and beat their scores, out of pure stubborness, and the intimate knowledge of my gear.
    It ain't the gear, but the shooter.
    To paraphrase, "It ain't the size of the dog, in a fight, but the size of the 'fight', in the dog!"
    My little girl, Brandy, at almost 50 pounds, recently sent an overly agressive, 110 pound lab, to the vet, with 'marks' on both heels, and muzzle.
    Stepson's lab, and a good, but mannerless, animal, but not real cognizant of his 'betters'. I had little dog, in the scrap, but the dog I had, had a lot of fight in her, thus the result.
    Never apologise for your gear, simply learn it well, and make it work!
    Brandy earns her keep, moving cattle 15 times her weight, and knows no better way to spend an afternoon; she will 'load' the meanest bull you've ever seen, into a trailer, in 90 seconds, or less, because she does not know this is an impossible task, for a 'normal' dog!
    Friend, understand, shooting is a long standing hobby; my ACD's (Heelers, to most) are my life; the animals teach me far more than I have, to teach them, but what I learn, I share.
    My dogs are 'rescues', so come seldom to never with papers, or pedigrees, yet work with the best stock dogs in the state; perhaps, knowing your gear?
    Every one was a step from being 'put down', some, with serious behavioral problems, when they came to me; every one is 'productive', and manageable, today.
    Now, this is working with 'junk equipment' at the highest order!
    We were in Houston, at the China Air Freight Terminal, a couple of weeks ago, to pick up a box of airplane parts, and deliver them, to a local aircraft shop, for a 'downed' aircraft; first thing I heard, was that the dog could not be in the terminal; I offered that she was a 'service dog', my bodyguard, but, that, if it was an issue, my truck was parked, and running, the second stall from the entrance. If it was an issue, I'd collect my package, and he could move the dog to the truck, with two other dogs,in the cab. Offer declined, with apologies.
    We did our business, and left.
    My point is, to me, these dogs are 'familiar gear' and respond, often, without a word, to a 'situation' that we have dealt with, before; so a familiar rifle, regardless of pedigree, will respond to familiar hands, with no apology, or excuse, needed.
  13. USMC-03

    USMC-03 New Member

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    Stash,

    Next time I'm in Houston on business I may take you up on that fishing offer. I've found a great fish house where I have dinner at lease once and would love to try going after some of that Gulf Coast stuff.

    Your right about the shooting and fun over winning. One of the most enjoyable matches I've been to was our state long range championship several years ago. I shot some of my personal best scores, 185+ out of 200 for each stage, and still came in dead last. But the opportunity to shoot along side of some of the finest shots in the world, have some of them checking out my gear and learning from them was more than worth the effort.

    The main thing is getting out and doing instead of just talking. Taking the shot and missing is better than not shooting at all. And that goes for most everything in life.
  14. Rat~Man

    Rat~Man New Member

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    As in .284 win? If so, you would only be the second person I've run across who owns one. Tack driver of a wildcat round.
  15. LongRifles

    LongRifles New Member

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    Yep, it's a 284 Win necked down to 6.5mm. Pretty much dominated(s) the 1000 yard "any/any" classes at Camp Perry.

    Load up a 140 grain SST from Hornady and it'll put a hurtin on some white tails.

    It's a hammer.

    Thanks.

    C~
  16. Montana Guy

    Montana Guy New Member

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    Just my 2 cents, 44-77 Sharps or Remington Rolling Block with 500 grainers and would kill a buffalo at that distance. Not very modern though, only been around since 1870's.
    National Match M1A will do a nice job on the x Ring and 10 Ring High Power Competition.
  17. UncleFudd

    UncleFudd Member

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    Hello fellow shooters.
    I am brannie new to your forum but like what I see this morning with my first cup.

    I grew up in Wy shooting nearly every day from early age.
    I started my own trap line at age 8 and made more money most months than my dad did with our ranch or his being on the Hiway patrol. My little bro did the same and is now 63 and still runs his traps and snares.

    Anyway I have never been able to shoot at paper and do well with scores. However prairie dogs is another thing all together. I try to get back to the ranch to see my son and brother at least 3 or 4 times every summer to catch trout and shoot prairie dogs. Not necessarily in that order.

    I have a queston for you though.

    I have read much about 1000 yd shooters and even the Leg match shooters with open sights and sub 3" groups at 500 yds open sight.
    To me that is pretty fair shooting.

    But as to the platform.
    I recently bought a Blaser R93 LRS 2 with two barrels in 223 and 22-250 and have never shot a more accurate gun in my life.
    I own several 700s and a couple of Ruget M77 in everything from 223 to 257 Roberts and they are certainly tac drivers but nothing compared to the R93.
    I took dogs out to 738 yds last summer with the out of the box 22-250 barrel in my R93

    Have any of you tried this gun in bigger bore for paper shooting at longer range? I wondered because I thought about buying one and using it to try long range shooting.

    Thanks and I really enjoy reading your posts guys.

    UncleFudd
  18. joedapro

    joedapro New Member

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    most service rifles do it easily with open sights. a quality ar upper with competition sights costs $700, a konus spotting scope costs $200. so long as you can get to the target supersonic you are good to go. for instance a 20 inch bbl with a 77 or 80 grain sierra, and a 1/7 twist. the toughest part is not the cost of the hardware, it is your skill at reading the wind.
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