S&W .40 Sigma trigger mod

Discussion in 'Technical Questions & Information' started by 1shot1k, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. yellerdawg

    yellerdawg Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    244
    Thank you JLA..and I hope it has helped some.

    I will add the following since last original post here;

    - The pistol is still doing fine, not only is my initial carry pistol still,
    and did fine since initial CHL, I subsequently became an Instructor for
    Texas in 2010, and used it for that, as qualifying requires both a revolver
    and a SA or auto. I was at 242 with this pistol out of needing 225 as
    Instructor to qualify from possible 250 allowed. Texas students require
    190 or better with weapon of choice. A qualify with auto allows revolver
    carry also, however revolver use allows only that type carry etc..

    - I since learned this pistol, in spite of "so called" Glock lawsuit, was indeed
    designed to have such a pull per trigger, as this is indeed, the only safety
    aspect of the weapon, short of the "essential safety between the ears"
    as mentioned. :D

    - I have seen on various other sources, this "trigger pull" and action
    feel, was a result of S&W desire to copy as close as possible the DA
    feel of a Model 60 revolver. I have tried both, and can believe this.

    - I have also " learned" and since proven, most were right on in their
    advice that 500 rounds or so would produce about the same results as
    the "mods" I had explored from others initially.

    - I have subsequently left the pigtail spring off, however I have taken
    others advice and used a spring similar to a ball pen type to indeed be
    there to possibly keep the inner actual "work" spring in place.

    - Besides the actual breakin or more important "practice and use and
    general familiarity " with pistol, the most effective maintenance I do
    want to add for any is regarding the plastic sear mount hump or section
    that trigger (springs) assembly levers against per use. This rounded
    portion and area responds well to a small amount of black lithium or similar
    grease. It does remove some grittiness experienced by so many.

    - The "other" way to improve trigger feel and grittiness I did not mention
    or include in above initial post, I learned by my own examination. The trigger spring assembly shown (where pigtail is removed) has inner walls
    or contact surfaces that produce friction as these "springs" that are shown
    travel or work .....I noticed that the surfaces involved per the friction or
    travel were rough and unfinished or unpolished versus the type of surface
    one might expect from fine machining etc....in fact, turns out these
    surfaces were left as is, per economics of manufacture , and are actually
    one of the first areas looked at and worked when S&W (used) to do
    free return work on these pistols initially.

    I happened to have several sets of very fine relay files from years of
    electronic work, and with these and the use of a good polish ( Mothers,
    mag wheel cream) I "carefully" did indeed affect these surfaces with an
    end result that greatly reduced any grit feel or grit drag etc..

    - I know of no way to reduce "travel" of this trigger design, as it is what
    it is. I also have since learned the use of "Glock" or 'Wolff " or similar
    spring change outs that I was warned against, do indeed, at some time
    when you are not expecting it, eventually cause or are likely to cause
    a fail to strike or sufficient hammer strike to primer. So as poundage
    reduction on a "carry weapon" was never my intent, I am glad I never
    explored this option, and would advise against it.


    - I would also advise is very important to effectively grease the
    " 6 " points as described in manual. This weapon does not like or need
    much oil.


    regards,
    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  2. Rocketman1

    Rocketman1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    I have the VE9, and I'm not used to that trigger pull yet, and I'm not sure if I ever will. After 1,300+ rounds through it the trigger pull has not improved, and I'm still all over the place with it. Most of my shots come in low and left, around the 7 to 8 o’clock position, which tells me I'm jerking the trigger rather than pulling it.

    The one good thing I can say is I have never had one failure at all. It will fire anything I put in it. It is very reliable. I have been thinking about trying the trigger mod, but I'm afraid I would just bugger something up.

    Glad you "Sticyed" it, now I know wehere to find it if I get brave.
  3. yellerdawg

    yellerdawg Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    244
    Yes, I would not want to suggest anything that affects the safety of the
    weapon such as lessening trigger pull to a dangerous level as some springs
    and mods can do. And of course, one should have some familiarity with
    mechanical workings and tooling.


    I have added the following info after three years of using and carrying my
    Sigma, and as to how I got this pistol, I invite any to read the thread
    'My Sigma" in pistol forum.


    The only thing I have done besides the basic mod/maintenance I show
    in these pics ( I did not take pics, only annotated them ) is that I purchased and have used a metal guide rod and spring kit (19 lbs) as
    to ensure integrity of use. I have since agreed with most posters on
    S&W forums that such is not needed usually, as the plastic (Glock style)
    rod should outlive pistol...however, for $29.00 AND having the original as a
    spare, I have not regretted this change of guide rod etc...if anyone does
    choose such a rod/spring change, be sure to "contact" them and make sure
    you tell them VE or what you have, or you will surely receive a Full size
    part.....!

    http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto...RRENT 4 INCH SERIES PISTOLS/cID1/mID58/dID260

    The factory parts schematic I have annotated shows the "lube" or grease
    points as described in manual.

    I also advise polishing "hand only" the barrel feed ramp to mirror polish
    especially for Hornady or other Defensive loads as I use and promote for
    all CHL carry.

    These annotated pics should be self explanatory,

    regards,

    yellerdawg

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  4. yellerdawg

    yellerdawg Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    244
    One more "general" polishing mod I forgot to include, that has
    done well "for me" anyway..

    I will also add that if what I have read on S&W and elsewhere is correct, S&W has
    sold per renewed contract over 100k by now of the VE series to middle eastern law enforcement
    and military, including Iraq and Afghan etc....


    yellerdawg

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 20, 2012
  5. Rocketman1

    Rocketman1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Thanks for posting the pictures yellerdawg, they were a great help in understanding this.

    So you have polished as describbed in the pics, and if I understand correctly, you have removed the small pig tail spring, but have left both the inner and outer coil springs as they were?

    Now this is where I get a little lost. This spring you describe as being similar to that of a ball pen type, does it replace the pig tail spring?

    Thanks
  6. yellerdawg

    yellerdawg Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    244
    No Rocketman....the little pig tail is removed...."some" say it is a direct
    result of the S&W Glock settlement (from S&W obviously copying so
    much of a Glock, and that it wasnt there on very first Sigmas and only showed up till after legal issues...? ) others say its there to help ensure
    sear resets after each shot...?

    No, the "similar" to a pen spring mentioned, when you look, is actually
    a LARGER spring that totally rides over, a smaller diameter INNER spring,
    with much more tension, and actually does the work..the outer spring seems really there to keep this inner spring in check and installed..etc..

    When I obtained the mod(s) originally and pics from S&W forum...the
    mod actually shows taking inner smaller spring and using a dremel wheel
    disc, shortening it by "almost" 1/8 inch, and also same to outer spring...in
    order to reduce some pull....

    I do not endorse changing the INNER spring at all, for possibility of indeed
    affecting sear/trigger reset, but I do or did change the outer...most indeed
    just got a ball point pen soft spring to replace with...however, I searched and found a "grab bag" of industrial compression and expansion springs
    and found one same length. but half the tension...etc...but..a ball pen
    spring would have probably done the same. I placed "original" outer spring in
    little bag with factory proof case should I ever transfer weapon, however
    if any have read My Sigma post...is obvious I will not get rid of this
    pistol.

    Please contact me with any further questions or comments...thanks..

    yellerdawg


    note per pics I added....


    - I annotated about cutting outer spring as he explained...but...I didnt
    and actually got a different and SHORTER (less tension) spring...and did
    nothing to INNER spring. This way, "some" trigger/hammer pull was reduced yet important INNER spring still held in place....

    And the grind wheel was to flatten any cut so a spring if shortened would STILL have a good area or foot to catch the little cam that holds it in
    place in "hammer" assembly .....?

    Attached Files:

  7. yellerdawg

    yellerdawg Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    244
    Rocketman, after checking, a couple more things to say...


    1- In post # 24....per pic I show where to polish hammer areas on
    TOP of pistol, that long flat arm that comes from trigger to hammer
    assembly....you just polish INNER of that flat arm, as "some" folks
    experienced some rub or grit there....in fact...if you look close at the
    pic, right between arm and frame where one of my green lines goes...
    you see the little black plastic frame runner that actually can rub this
    arm...

    "Some" even showed filing or removing enough of that plastic area so
    that nothing can rub....if yours is tight, then do that..otherwise just
    polish arm (inside / next to frame) very bright. I also grease a drop
    right at that point each cleaning.

    And, this "arm" is what you carefully move from pivot point of hammer when you have used a punch (at top rear of pistol) to remove the only pin
    you need to remove sear/hammer assembly....but...the end of arm that
    connects to trigger stays intact, so handle gently, when removing and
    if polishing etc...


    2- I would not ask for any to do anything that they feel uncomfortable
    about. I am an EE and Microwave and Digital Engineer by trade, but with
    much time in a machine shop. I am not a gunsmith, just a smith per my
    own weapons if desired. I looked and studied much before I did anything to
    my Sigma, I did not by any means do all I saw being done by others,and
    have in fact passed on some things I have determined myself to do, that
    I have not seen elsewhere.

    I have simply passed on the simplest means I know for any that may benefit, keeping safety and reliability foremost. And as I said, 700 to 1000
    rounds will almost do as much to trigger feel as anything I have suggested or done....except...

    If you do nothing at all, except clean it...get a set of punches so you can
    take the one top rear pin out, remove sear molding and hammer springs, and do grease and lube the sear cam or lobe where I showed. If not...
    eventually yours will indeed have plastic scoring as in pic I showed from metal to plastic wear.


    regards,

    yellerdawg
  8. Rocketman1

    Rocketman1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Thanks so much for all the additional info Yellerdoawg. Nice pictures and illustrations.
    I understand everyting now, and I may just trythis soon. I think I may start by just removing the small pig tail spring and doing some light polishing, and see how much it improves. Looks like I can always add the spring(s) back in, if something dosen't work right.

    Thanks!
    Darrell
  9. lzvagias

    lzvagias New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Newbie here. I recently bought the sigma .40 cal and loved the gun for it's price point, rugged nature, and reliability but loathed the trigger. It seemed like the gun had too much potential to be ruined by the heavy gritty trigger. I polished out the parts as mentioned earlier, used anti seize grease from permatex, removed the pigtail (that thing is like mosquitos, they serve zero purpose) and I swapped out the spring for an aftermarket that I purchased. I have over 1000 rounds of the cheapest crap ammo I could purchase, steel casings and brass, with zero failures. If I get a misfire with it the next time I fire it i will still consider this a very high reliability rate. What bothered me the most was not that the trigger was a little rough or heavy, it was my accuracy.... plain and simple. Consistently low and left unless I was trying to compensate then it was just consistently inconsistent. After doing all thee mods I learned something interesting..... the grouping to the left was very much a result of the trigger pull issues (that was not a surprise) but the reason that they are LOW and to the left is nothing to do with the trigger. the low issue is the fault of the lousy front site. Has anybody noticed how tall the front site is?? It is rediculous!! While searching for a solution to this I came across another forum where somebody discovered that you can purchase a HiViz fiber optic site for a Glock and after doing a little filing on the site you can replace the OEM one. Night and day difference!! I am not shooting low anymore. I would highly recommend this to anybody that is frustrated with the "low and left" issue. Also, many people are not even aware that the rear site IS adjustable for windage. You can use the plastick handle of a big screw driver to gently tap the site sideways in the slide but make sure you the "left" is not human induced. You wouldn't want to try and compensate for your twitching by adjusting the windage. You would really be inconsistent if you did.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
  10. Rocketman1

    Rocketman1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Welcome to the forum zvagias.
    Glad you took the time to join and share your experience with your Sigma. Stick around you will like it here.

    I would very much appreciate info on the after market spring you purchased, and a web site link and further instruction on the front sight replacement.

    I was aware that the rear sight was adjustable, but I didn't want to mess with it, until I found out if its me or the gun. The Sigma is the first pistol I owned. I just recently got a .22 pistol, and I'm much better with it. I got the .22 for something cheaper to shoot and I thought it might help me shoot the Sigma better. It did just the opposite. After shooting the .22 the trigger pull on the Sigma is unbearable. I usually shoot at 25 yards and my shots are all low and left, and very often in the dirt on the low target that I shoot at.
  11. lzvagias

    lzvagias New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    thanks for the welcome! I got the spring from ebay from this guy http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spring-to-r...=WDVW&rd=1&ih=007&category=73944&cmd=ViewItem and there is another guy on ebay that sells them but this one said it ws designed by a gunsmith and was made for the sigma. The other guy probably sells the same spring but I guess I liked that this guy mentioned gunsmith and "designed for the sigma". The hiviz sight I got from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EI6BR4/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00 and basically, the old front sight comes off by grabbing it with a pair of pliers and twist it off or you can salvage it (like I did) by using a pocket knife or small flat head screw driver and prying the glue off from the underside of the slide. Actually, it's not glue, the site is pushed in and then the melt the underside of it and thats what holds it in place. Then Sigma and the Glock both have an oval hole cut in the slide for the front sight, the only problem is that the Glock's oval is larger so you have to file down the oval "foot" on the bottom of the new sight to fit into the Sigma slide. There is a very nice detailed write up with pics on another forum but I don't know the rules about posting links to other forums websites on this forum. It is usually frowned upon and I don't want to wear out my welcome on my second post here but I will PM you the link. If you have a Dremel and have a steady hand it is really quick and easy but even if you just have a file it would still be simple.
  12. Rocketman1

    Rocketman1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Thanks for all the detail, and for the info cent in the PM Izagias, it's greatly appreciated.
    I think I certainly have enough information to do the mods now, but I'm still a little reluctant to jump right in. The Sigma is primarily my home defense weapon, and as is, (trigger pull and all) it will do just fine. One day soon I will try some of the mods, probably strating with just polishing, and then go from there.

    Thanks Again!
  13. lzvagias

    lzvagias New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    I uderstand your point but I would strongly urge you to at least polish out the trigger parts with some 800 wet sand paper until the imperfections are gone then step up to 1000 grit and then polish with mothers or something like that and definitetly remove the pigtail spring. This will make the gun much better, is very easy to do, and is almost impossible to mess up anything. Mine is mainly for home defense too but I beleive that the more accurate you are with your firearm the better off you are going to be in a real life or death situation. Anything i can do to improve my ability to put a bullet where I need it is added security. If somebody is in my house I am going to grab the biggest highest capicity gun I have and I want to be able to point and shoot quickly without worrying about aiming at his chest and then grazing his arm because my trigger is crappy. But that is just my opinion and I am not a combat expert nor do I hope that I ever find myself in that position.
  14. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Eastern Missouri
    I have the 40VE, it came with the long hard trigger pull. After reading all the forums on the trigger mods I decided to just shoot it. I have a little over 300 rounds through it and the trigger breaks at a hair over 5 lbs now. I did have the low shooting problem, did the Hi Viz sight mod about a year ago after I went to put it in the nightstand and noticed the front sight was GONE... S&W said I needed to send the slide in, the front sight had to be "electronically welded" on. I said "You mean melted, right? Never mind, I'll just put a Glock sight on it." For some reason there was total silence on the line just before I said goodbye and disconnected.

    I did switch from the VE as my primary CCW pistol, have some carpal tunnel problems with the right hand so went to a Ruger P95 due to the DA/SA capability and the ability to pull the trigger a second time in case of a hard primer.
  15. lzvagias

    lzvagias New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    Haha! They probably were still trying to figure out why a Glock sight fit your slide. I like that you called them on "electronically welded". That's funny. I used to have a p89 I think or maybe it was a p90. It was a long time ago and I didn't have it very long. I bought used from a buddy then had to sell it because I needed the cash about 6 months later. I really liked that gun but damn it was big! There was no concealing that bad boy, not on me anyway. I liked the capacity it had, 16+1 or 17+1 or something like that. I was actually looking for another used when I found the SW40 and went with it but I may end up buying another one still.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2012
  16. mogunner

    mogunner Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Eastern Missouri
    15+1 for us folks that live outside of California. I had a heck of a time finding one, I guess Ruger had some special going on and pretty near sold out of them, finally located one by luck at one of the LGS around here for the same price that Bud's wanted for one. I CC it in an IWB at 3:00, but I'm 6'4" and 230. I'm actually considering selling the 40VE to fund a venture into a black powder rifle so I can take advantage of the muzzleloader deer season here, there's a conservation area close by but no centerfire deer season only archery and black powder.
  17. shorter260513

    shorter260513 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2010
    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    Tennessee
    just did this on my 9mm sigma worked wonders but if you have fat fingers like me have a small clamp and a pair of tweezers handy
  18. Sig Willy

    Sig Willy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2012
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Texas
    I removed the torsion (pigtail) spring and put a dab of lithium grease between the sear cam and the plastic housing. Worked the trigger to spread the grease and I'm satisfied. The trigger's hard enough for safety and now smoother pulling.

    1000 rounds and no problem with my Sigma 9mm. :)
  19. Fox-Firearms

    Fox-Firearms New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Hi All. Great reading about S&W Sigma trigger mods. I've read all kinds of posts, and most of them will help reduce trigger pull. With that being said, I would only recommend doing a trigger mod yourself if you plan on keeping the gun forever. Modifying the trigger yourself voids the warranty, and opens you to civil liability if you sell the gun and someone gets hurt.

    I just got off the phone with S&W, and they told me the pull is factory set at 12 lbs, but can be reduced to a minimum of 8.5 lbs (legal safety requirements). If you send your Sigma back to S&W, they will reduce the pull to 8.5 lbs at no cost to you, other than shipping. I STRONGLY recommend you let S&W take care of this fix for you.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  20. Rocketman1

    Rocketman1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Oh... glad I saw your post. I didn't think S&W was doing the free trigger mods anymore. Looks like I will have to give them a call. Do you have a contact number?
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
Technical Questions & Information S&W Sigma trigger Dec 23, 2005
Technical Questions & Information Another Sigma VE question Dec 22, 2009
Technical Questions & Information smith&wesson sigma Jul 24, 2008
Technical Questions & Information S&W Sigma slide disassembly Apr 18, 2008
Technical Questions & Information sigma Sep 12, 2004