Safe Black Powder Guns??

Discussion in 'Black Powder Shooting / Muzzleloaders / Handguns' started by Red Neck64, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Hey Red, whereabouts in "Northern NY" are you from?

    I was born in Buffalo and grew up in the "Snow Belt" south of Buffalo....lived their until I graduated college....
  2. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    Good post, PopG....yeah, when I read the article I couldn't help but think the guy MAY have had another dog in the fight, like just MAYBE he worked for Knight or TC or something like that....it was almost TOO damning, and knowing Walmart as I do, there is NO WAY for liabilities sake in this day and age of frivolous lawsuits, would they sell them AFTER this stuff was "proved true...." because you KNOW if the guy bought it at Walmart, he named THEM in the suit TOO.....:p


    My goodness, I've spent almost the last 30 years in Retail, and you would be SURPRISED how many items are in ANY given store's stockroom shrinkwrapped on a pallet with big signs that say "DO NOT SELL-PULL AND HOLD UNTIL DISPOSITON FROM THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT" or something similar, and MOST of them are mundane items, with just the FIRST indication of being unsafe or recalled, NOT firearms, and NOT with anywhere NEAR this much "documentation" in public....
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2006
  3. spud

    spud New Member

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    Randy Wakeman is a shill for savage!!!
  4. ceader savage

    ceader savage New Member

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    can i put in my 2 cents i've had c.v.a.s for 35plus years from hawkens, applos,hunters , last kodak,blasser all shot well use your head and max 100gr. also keep you powder dry
  5. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    OK, I have been shooting BP for almost 30 years. Began shooting a TC renegade, have owned MANY CVA side hammers, then switched to flint about 25 yeras ago. I bought my FIRST of ONLY 2 inlines 5 or less years ago to carry in Ohio during their modern gun season (they only allow shotguns so I figured an in-line was better for me plus being it is an encore, I can use modern barrels, teh otehr was for my son) and BOTH my in-lines are 45 caliber rated for magnum loads of 150 grains. Do I shoot 150 grains, NO, why, because I figure that is too muchj powder and I pride myself on getting close enpough to shoot a deer within 50 yards. Will they handle 150 grains, I do not know nor do I care.

    Bottom line is I believe the original post that began this thread is BS, pure straight from the bulls arse BS. Now what is NOT being mentioned is 99 out of 100 accidents or malfunctions with a BP gun is operater error. They say tehy dropped in 3 50gr pellets and ONE saboted projectile but forgot to mention the extra pellet and the extra projectile to see if it will shoot double rounds like I have seen many do in old TC hawkins (put one patched ball on top another). They forgot to say IF they measured the ram rod to see IF the load was tamped down ALL the way or was the sabot only 1/2 the way down the barrel thus creating an air space of a few inches? They did not say if the scope that was mounted fit the rifle OR did the operater have to drill more holes in the barrel to get the bases to line up thjus possibly drilling tpoo far into teh barrel causing a failure. CVA, Traditions, and many otehr BP gun companies have been in business a long time, too long to be putting out dangerous products to the public and still be in business. The fault lies in people buying in-lines, buying into the idea they are substitutes for MODERN rifles, and not fuly understandimng how to load them or trying to load them to higher standards than the rifle is supposed to be loaded. These type of hunters want an edge over everyone else, they want to be the one to make the longest shot, they want to take the easy way out, they want bragging rights, and they want it done as cheap as possible with as little work as possible. Me, i want ba flinter (smooth bore or rifled), a nice fall day, and a deer walking around me at distances of 25 yards. I will then shoot a load from thjat flint gun that I know is safe. By the way, I will be at Friendship sometime after it opens on Sept 13, 2008 this year to pick up some supplies.

    Bottom line is 99% of BP malfunctions and accidents are operater error or inexperience IF the truth were to be told IMHO.
  6. Dan Keith

    Dan Keith New Member

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    I found this post while searching the net for info on proof testing black powder guns. It seems I had the info all along, just didn't realize it. A copy of Dixie Gun Works catalog tells all. From the original post here, it looks like the fellow fired his new CVA rifle with something like a Provisional Proof load, or a triple charge. According to DGW charts, the standard load for a rifle of that caliber should have been 50-60 grains of Black Powder.

    I'm 48, and have been shooting ML's since 1979. My CVA Mountain Rifle, .45 cal. side lock-cap-lock, has been a great rifle and I generally load 50-60 grains of FFF and a .440 patched round ball. I consider 60 grains the max load.

    With my .75 cal. Musket, 80 grains of FF was the standard load.

    My .36 cal. custom built flint rifle generally gets 40 grains of FFF Black Powder.

    Here's some further info gleaned from DGW.

    Examples of standard loads:

    As a general rule, for rifles and muskets, you load one grain of Black Powder per cal. So if you have
    a .36 cal. rifle, load it with 36 grains of BP.
    a .44 cal. rifle, load it with 44 grains of BP.
    For Pistols, use half the amount.

    .75 cal Musket: 70-80 grains of FF Black Powder.

    20 guage/.60 cal. Musket: 60 grains of FF Black Powder.

    .45 cal. rifle: 45-60 grains of FFF Black Powder.

    .44 cal. pistol: 22 grains of FFF Black Powder.

    .58 cal. pistol: 20-30 grains of FFF BP.

    .69 cal pistol: 25-35 grains of FF BP.

    20 guage pistol: 20-30 grains of FFF BP.

    Provisional Proof, was done when barrel was in basic stage and tested with three times the standard load of BP.
    Definitive Proof, was done when barrel was finished and tested with double the standard load of BP.
    Service Charge, is the standard load of BP.

    DGW suggests a basic test for Proof being double the standard load, plus two patched balls. Also, remove the barrel from the stock and use a several inch long firecracker fuse to ignite the charge.

    So a test for proof of a .50 cal. rifle would be 100 grains of FFF BP with two patched balls.

    Proof for a 20 guage musket would be 120 grains of FF BP and two .60 balls.

    Proof for a 20 guage pistol would be 60 grains of FFF BP and two .60 balls.

    Just an interesting addition... back in high school,(1978 or so) in metal shop, we used to make cannons. Mine was a 2" piece of cold rolled steel, 6" long, with a 1/2"/.50 cal. bore, 5" deep and a 1/8" touch hole. I was shooting trap at the time and reloaded my own shells. So for this cannon, I'd put a several inch piece of waterproof cannon fuse in the touch hole, fill the bore with Smokeless powder, like Red-Dot, or 700X or something... to within sight of the muzzle, stick a wad in the barrel and hammer a rock in... light the fuse and RUN! Talk about a BOOM!

    After firing this cannon dozens of times in this manner, one day the barrel bulged near the touch hole, with a one inch long split visible in the steel, but not all the way thru to the bore. We tried everything from then on to see if we could get it to blow up further, but to no avail. It continued to function as a noise maker for years... don't know what became of it tho... haven't seen it in years.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2008
  7. mrkirker

    mrkirker New Member

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    Dan, great information.
    ... don't know what became of it tho... haven't seen it in years.

    Probably sold on E-bay as "Original, genuine, Civil War mortor/cannon"
  8. zaydex5

    zaydex5 New Member

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    In my ignorance,in 1970 I proofed a Pennsylvania 45 cal long rifle I had made,using 120 gr ffg and 3 patched balls,or triple the usual load. I did this 3 or 4 times,and the barrel and breech plug withstood it without any sign of bulge or splitting.Maybe this was excessive,but figured I erred on the side of safety. Any suggestions as to what I should have done? I still have the rifle,and it still is ok.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  9. Buffalochip

    Buffalochip Active Member

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    With blackpowder or equivalent substitute, it is NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE to overload a modern BP rifle. The powder will blow out of the barrel before it ignites. HOWEVER, I suspect many of these alleged accidents occurred because the bullet was not properly seated AND THERE WAS AN AIR GAP! A combination of a heavy load and air gap between the projectile and the powder is equivalent to jamming the muzzle in the ground and pulling the trigger!
  10. jjmitchell60

    jjmitchell60 Active Member

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    X-ring gentelmen, X-Ring!!! IMHO no truer words have been posted as to what "really" caused the inline in question as well as 99% of all BP rifle blow ups!!!
  11. Little Rooster

    Little Rooster New Member

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  12. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    Randy Wakeman is the worst thing that's happened to bp in the last 900 years.:(
  13. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Was going to ask who Randy Wakeman is, then found his page. The "fine print" at the bottom of the home page says

  14. quigleysharps4570

    quigleysharps4570 New Member

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    Use to ask that myself...then found out he's some sorta self-proclaimed blackpowder guru. Kinda surprised that one of his followers hasn't jumped on ole Hawg for bad mouthing their boy. :)
  15. Hawg

    Hawg Active Member

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    They're more than welcome to. I'll jump back tho.:D I would say what I really think of him but not quite ready to get banned yet.;)
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