Set Trigger

Discussion in 'Technical Questions & Information' started by Neil L, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. Neil L

    Neil L New Member

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    Is there a way to put a CZ type (any brand) push forward to lighten pull from standard pull, on a m77 mark II Ruger 22-250? Or is this not the way to go? Can this be done if you are some what mechanical or strictly a gunsmith deal?

    Thanks, Neil
  2. 300 H&H

    300 H&H Active Member

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    Yes Neil, it can be done to your Ruger. I think Canjar and a couple of others make set triggers for the MKII Model 77. In my opinion they let go of a winner in the original M77 trigger. It was fully adjustable. For your gun there are replacement trigger parts that will not make it adjustable, but much better that what you have. The set trigger is a gunsmith job, the replacement parts are "drop in" and you could do it your self. Best reguards Kirk
  3. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Neil, the 'light pull' advantage of a 'single set' trigger, as you describe, comes with it's own set of drawbacks.
    It is mechanically 'busier' than a plain trigger, meaning the likelihood of problems goes up, with the number of parts involved.
    It is a "less familiar" device, to most gunsmiths; with all the litigation, and liability suits, today, many 'smiths want no part of such a thing, because it could end up costing them a LOT of money, meaning, you may have a heck of a time, finding anyone to do work on the rifle.
    And, any multiple lever trigger will increase 'Lock Time', the time between the 'break' of the firing trigger, and the fall of the hammer, or striker.
    Don't get me wrong; I own, and have for many years, a CZ Vz 550, which came from the factory with both a plain, and single set, trigger groups, and I love it! But it is one of my 'restricted' rifles, one that others will never shoot, until I am totally confident in their skills, out of the same concerns, from PP3, above.
    Plain trigger, with a bit of work, now will not lift a 24 oz weight, before 'breaking', the set trigger, about 6 oz.
    At the point in time when I bought this rifle, I needed a 'medium rifle', capable of 600 yd + performance, with substantial energy, even at that range, surgical accuracy, but discrete appearance; the CZ was all that, but, to use few words, the triggers sucked. (In truth, above average, but 'average' goes to the gunshows, out of my holdings, as I require a higher standard!) The basic rifle 'Rocked'.
    Triggers are nothing but Euclidean Geometry, in metal, if the metal is good!
    So, I knocked them apart, measured everything, and drew a picture, of how it 'should' work, then, made it like the picture, in the case of both triggers.
    I had, at the time, the use, unrestricted, of the prototype shop of a large Defense Contractor, with Optical Comparators, more machine tools than I can name, and all the time in the world, to use them; every dimension is 'on the split', and finish, of the working surfaces, better than 100 microinches, which is 2 orders of magnitude better than I started with!
    Now I have a medium rifle, in .375 H&H Improved, that will shoot ragged holes at 100, and under 5" at 600, off a rest, but one, that out of 'survival instinct' alone, I can loan to a very select number of others!
    Your Ruger is a common rifle, to gunsmiths, and is nothing to cause them concern; it is of excellent metal, well heat treated, and excellent design.
    Were it mine, question #1 is, Will it shoot? Ie, tied to an anvil, consistant sight picture, does it shoot the same place, every time?
    Likely answer, "No", so you evaluate the bedding, and glass, or better, 'pillar bed', the action, and float the barrel, then re-test, at a variety of KNOWN (Buy a 1/4" torque wrench) values, for the action screws; some are real sensitive here, some, almost 'don't care'; the latter group are usually the 'hummers': Torque makes a lot of difference, if the 'bedding' is 'flaky', very little, if it is really right
    Only after I prove to myself that the rifle will 'shoot', would I worry myself about improving the trigger, and then, I would consider a spring kit, and some stone work, over a replacement trigger
  4. Don Buckbee

    Don Buckbee New Member

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    I have a Canjar Single Set trigger on a custom 22-250. It is an outstanding trigger. The only down side is removing the stock, as you have to remove some parts from the trigger blade to get the stock off. So, I just never remove the stock..:D Canjar triggers are a loooong wait to get one. I waited a year and a half for mine.
    I just did two trigger jobs on Ruger 77's, but neither one is a single set. I find it easier getting "into" standard triggers than with the set triggers, for actual shooting.

    Don
  5. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    Neil L:

    I have several CZ's with set triggers. I have mixed feeling about set triggers. I like the low pull weight but remembering to set them is a nuisance. I find the lightest set trigger settings waaaaay too light. I adjust the regular trigger for field use in the 2 to 4 lb. range and only use the set trigger, set at about one lb., for target work which is 99% of my shooting. When others shoot it I warn them of the "hair trigger" and most are astonished at how light one pound really is. You only brush the set trigger to set it off. There is virtually no pull at all even when adjusted to about one lb..

    I do trigger jobs on most all my guns. Rifles that I buy usually have adjustable triggers or I replace them with Timneys or others that are adjustable. I make the engagement safe and turn down the pull level and adjust the overtravel for some very small amount to assure the trigger will reset every time regardless of the gun's temperature. Some I have to shorten or replace the trigger pull level spring to get into my favorite level, which is 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 range. I find anything less is hard to use as it is too easy to accidentally set off, ruining your score target, or shooting someone.

    I would buy another CZ with a set trigger in a heart beat but I would not convert any gun like your Ruger to a set trigger as the cost and usefullness is very questionable. A good after market regular trigger or the original adjusted correctly (and the springs tuned as necessary) into the 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 lb range is actually ideal for even target shooting for non-competitors.

    For your useage I would think a walk through the Brownells catalog, to see what is available (no set trigger), is needed. You may find the parts needed to make you Ruger trigger sweet. If Timney makes a trigger I'd go with them, since your Ruger MK II is not adjustable, unlike the MK I.

    Remember this is my opinion and experience. Yours may differ.

    LDBennett

    PS: As an aside, I find the CZ550 trigger to be excellent as delivered and the CZ527 less so. The latter is a bit sloppy felling when setting it but the pull seems unaffected by the sloppiness of the setting part (??). Both can be optimally adjusted for both the regular trigger and the set trigger. Finally, a set trigger should never be pre-set for field use. Any small bump will set them off. They must only be set seconds before shooting with the gun stationary and pointed down range. Extreme caution MUST be practiced when the trigger is in the set mode.
  6. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Mr Buckbee, I have several Canjars, around me, and all please me, greatly.
    They're artwork, from a machine shop, and I am pleased to sing their merits, as they are consistantly fine work.
    Alton Jewell is 30 minutes from me; we shoot together, on occasion, another fine trigger, butt, his list is longer than Canjar's!
    I've shot the Canjar 'set trigger', under a 40-X, of a friend, the old trigger, with the 'little bit', hanging out the back of the main limb, to 'cock' the trigger, with no problems, excellent 'feel', but no better scores than with the same rfle, plain trigger,"done right".
    Mr Bennett, I understand your issues, as well; can we start from the bottom?
    If I needed the advice, in your 'post scriptum', I have no business with a weapon, trigger aside; read the fu**ing book, before opening!, ought to be on the outside of the box!
    I am not fussing at you, but, rather, at those who would shoot first, read later.
    The CZ, I concur, is the best value, for a serious, large game shooter, on the planet; A Demoulin, square bridge, Mauser action, no trigger, barrel, only the action, was around $4K, last I checked.
    True enough, for a discerning customer, there may be some crude aspects, but none that will not 'clean up' with minimal work, and maybe a few resized pins, in the case of the CZ, the 'simple' trigger will respond to the same efforts, and afford faster locktime; the steel is good stuff, heat treating, excellent, so a stone, and a jig, and you're done; almost like a pre-dissolution of the USSR rifle, but not quite as pretty, inside.
    I don't consider the .375 H&H, a 'target' round, but the .30-.378 might qualify, as such, but the thought of a 4 oz trigger, safe as Ft Knox, is a really exciting one, to me; both my 550's have such, with the 'set triggers', and well less than two pounds, with the simple triggers.
    These are not the rifles I shoot the most, as I am a 'died in the wool', single shot lover, but, I own a couple, against the day when I win the lottery, and am forced to go to Africa, again!
    I like light, reliable, triggers; the CZ offers two levels of 'light', both reliable.
    It just ain't gonna get much better!
  7. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Mr Buckbee, I have several Canjars, around me, and all please me, greatly.
    They're artwork, from a machine shop, and I am pleased to sing their merits, as they are consistantly fine work.
    Alton Jewell is 30 minutes from me; we shoot together, on occasion, another fine trigger, butt, his list is longer than Canjar's!
    I've shot the Canjar 'set trigger', under a 40-X, of a friend, the old trigger, with the 'little bit', hanging out the back of the main limb, to 'cock' the trigger, with no problems, excellent 'feel', but no better scores than with the same rfle, plain trigger,"done right".
    Mr Bennett, I understand your issues, as well; can we start from the bottom?
    If I needed the advice, in your 'post scriptum', I have no business with a weapon, trigger aside; read the fu**ing book, before opening!, ought to be on the outside of the box!
    I am not fussing at you, but, rather, at those who would shoot first, read later.
    The CZ, I concur, is the best value, for a serious, large game shooter, on the planet; A Demoulin, square bridge, Mauser action, no trigger, barrel, only the action, was around $4K, last I checked.
    True enough, for a discerning customer, there may be some crude aspects, but none that will not 'clean up' with minimal work, and maybe a few resized pins, in the case of the CZ, the 'simple' trigger will respond to the same efforts, and afford faster locktime; the steel is good stuff, heat treating, excellent, so a stone, and a jig, and you're done; almost like a pre-dissolution of the USSR rifle, but not quite as pretty, inside.
    I don't consider the .375 H&H, a 'target' round, but the .30-.378 might qualify, as such, but the thought of a 4 oz trigger, safe as Ft Knox, is a really exciting one, to me; both my 550's have such, with the 'set triggers', and well less than two pounds, with the simple triggers.
    These are not the rifles I shoot the most, as I am a 'died in the wool', single shot lover, but, I own a couple, against the day when I win the lottery, and am forced to go to Africa, again!
    I like light, reliable, triggers; the CZ offers two levels of 'light', both reliable.
    It just ain't gonna get much better!
  8. Neil, what you are describing is what's called a "single set trigger." This is normally one trigger that may be fired with a conventional amount of trigger pull weight, or may be "set," usually by pushing forward on the trigger. This takes up the creep in the trigger and allows the rifle to function with a much lighter trigger pull. A double set trigger accomplishes the same thing, but uses two triggers: one sets the trigger and the other fires the weapon. Set triggers are most likely to be seen on customized weapons and competition rifles where a light trigger pull is beneficial to accuracy.
  9. Neil L

    Neil L New Member

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    Pistol,
    With all said above, A Ruger MK II 22-250, for Coyote for pelt, will a set triger be of value past 200yds? Am I making more of this than need be, I dont want to wound and chase, just a clean stop. I have found from this site that the round has a great effect on the final hide condition.
    Best, Neil
  10. I can only state a personal opinion on that issue, Neil, and others may certainly differ. Frankly, I don't see much use for set triggers on anything except specialized target rifles shot from the bench. Stash, for one, may disagree with that statement, however, and I highly respect his opinion. A good trigger is indeed necessary to accuracy; that's axiomatic. Yet a good set trigger is so sensitive that a hard wish will set it off, and I've always felt that constitutes too much danger of accidental (negligent!) dischage for game field work. Your Ruger already has a damn good trigger, Neil, more than adequate for the kind of shooting you describe. I'd put my effort into more practice with the rifle, rather than put more money into a trigger that would improve accuracy only marginally at best under field conditions. Where a set trigger really becomes valuable, in my view, is under bench shooting conditions at very long range where that tiny bit of extra advantage can pay dividends.
  11. LDBennett

    LDBennett Active Member

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    I have to agree that a set trigger probably should not be used in the field on a hunting rifle. They are way too senstive, and should never be moved to set until the last momment before firing. There is nothing wrong with having a rifle with a set trigger and only using the set function on the bench on paper targets or range steel. They give your rifle dual usage: field and target.

    While set triggers indeed make the trigger action completely creep free, the way they do it is unique. On all the set triggers I have studied there are two sears. When the trigger is set the striker is held back by the primary sear which has normal safe engagement (trigger jobs that lighten and reduce creep on regular triggers often approach unsafe sear engagement levels in the quest for reduced creep). The secondary sear is released, after being set and pulled, will fly a short distance, hitting the primary sear and knocking it out of engagement. The secondary sear uses the momentum of its travel to gain enough energy to displace the primary sear. So you have a safe primary sear and a hair trigger secondary sear. Until the rifle is set it posses all the safety of any other rifle. But set it and it is super sensitive to anything that will knock the secondary sear off the trigger.

    All this extra mechanical motion takes more time than a regular trigger and the rifle's lock time is increased significantly. If you are on a bench shooting at a stationary target, lock time is not all that important but if you are shooting at a target in motion it might make a difference. Long range targets in the field or on the bench also can be affected by the long lock time as your shaking on and off the target, from say your heat beat, means the extended time from pulling the trigger to the shot going off (lock time) is harder to time to your shake.

    LDBennett
  12. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Pistol, we have no 'issues' on this subject; LD, likewise.
    But, here's the 'skinny', by my take.
    A 'simple' trigger, one trigger, one sear, with the geometry done by an engineer, not an accountant, done in good metal, by folks skilled in the business, ought to be safe well below pull weights of one pound; the Winchester 'Single shot', I offer up as evidence; all their stuff was good steel, and the heat treat, excellent. A bit of 'touching up' with a stone, and the trigger is c 7 oz, with no other work.
    If there is the steel, and the room, and the geometry this is the route,IMHO.
    Now, let me lie! My Stevens 44 1/2 was a Model 45 "Range rifle", as it came to me, and has had it's world turned completely 'upsidedown', since.
    But, it came with a scarce, 'double set' tang, mis assembled, but all the Pieces there; how can I not use such a 'parts trove'?
    The lower tang was completely apart,for weeks, as I measured every part, and brought it to the 'design geometry', with a pencil, and a lot of time! The rifle is today a M-54 Stevens, with five fresh, identical barrels, save the rifling twist, and a trigger group that works like a Swiss watch. Lock time suffers, for the 'set trigger', but the big barrels, (1.100,at the receiver, straight tapered to.990, at the muzzle,25 inches away), allow me some room, in use.
    The Stevens, and Winchester, set triggers, are of sound design, and good material, but need some help with pins, and the accuracy of the holes they run in; while I would prefer a 'plain' trigger of equal weight of pull, these are far safer, being manually 'armed', to 'go light'.
    I shoot these rifles every year, and a lot, and hunt them, as well; there is nothing wrong with either approach, assuming an adult operator.
  13. Don Buckbee

    Don Buckbee New Member

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    In addition to the Canjar single set trigger, I have two CZ 527's with similar single set triggers. I tore apart the unset part of the trigger on one of the two, and did some parts polishing and a spring change, making the uset pull weight 1 1/2 pounds, which is creep free and no after travel, with a good crisp break. I prefer shooting that rifle in the unset mode for everything, targets and game animals. I haven't done the other trigger yet.
    I feel more safe using these trggers in the unset mode than the set mode. I can get "into" the trigger better, with more confidence, in the unset mode.

    Don

    Edit to add: Both of the CZ triggers, in the set mode, break at 13 ounces.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2007
  14. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    Mr Buckbee, I very much respect the accurate facts, knowledge, and advice you post here, and even more, your choice in rifles!
    For those of you who don't go back, that far, before thr Berlin Wall came down, the only source for these rifles, legally, was in 'Rod and Gun Clubs', on Military bases, in Europe, mostly, as the were and are made in the Czech Republic; the 'evil Bloc', and were not eligeable for importation, after 1968, believe, except as 'household goods', of a returning servicemember.
    Many of their sporting rifles of the '50's, and '60's, were built with 'double set' triggers (1 for setting, 1 for firing) of excellent design, and execution: the finish of those early post war guns rivaled that of FN.
    The designs remain well engineered, and the current product is well the best value per dollar, on the market.
    In the early '80's, right after the wall came down, Bauska Arms was the sole importer, and sold them fast and cheap, out of quality, and an Eastern Europe, starved for 'Hard Currencies'.
    Then, there were four centerfire actions; one, designed for the .22 Hornet, but also offered in .222 Rem, the second, a .308 Win sized action, the third, ''06", length, and the last one, the 'Belle of the Ball', a .375 H&H++, length actioned rifle, selling for less than a third, lock, stock and barrel, a complete (and, in every caliber I have fired it, exceptionally reliable and accurate ) rifle, the price of a 'Square bridge' Demoulin Mauser Action, the next least expensive 'factory platform' on which to base a 'Major' rifle!
    IIRC, about $600, US, for the rifle, about $2K, for the action, and the rifles, as all their rifles, have an 'integral dovetail', on the top of the receiver, located of the receiver bore, then used for 'fixturing' in the rest of the manufacturing process!
    From the early '80's, the finish went down, in quality, as did much of the wood, but the rifles are as reliable as the sunrise, tougher than nails, and absolutely "Unbreakable" in adult use! They, in that period, customarily came with both a 'single set', and a plain' trigger, except for the vz685, ( I think that was the model number, the rest, I am sure of) in 'Hornet', and .222, which came with a 'double set' trigger.
    I saw an ad in 'Shotgun news', from Navy Arms, about 1980, offering "MAS 45" (type) training rifles, in .22 lr, for either $69.95, 0r $79.95, with a big discount, for multple orders, talked to the owner of the shop, and ordered 10, so we owned them, at about $50/per; cheap enough.
    But, Imagine the surprise, as UPS delivered them, and they were all BRNO (the city where CZ is, and the way they formerly marked their 'wares) Model 1's, or 2's!
    The rifles, every one, were 'rollmarked "made in the UAR" (Egypt, in 1957, as all the rifles were proofed; but, with a CZECH "Rampant Lion" proof!
    The two I dragged off, had stocks of nice wood, but abused, so were refinished. Both live with me, to this day, under scopes that cost several times what the rifle did. both have a trigger that looks identical, in geometry, and only little different in dimension, from the model 54 Winchester; a 'plain' trigger, at it's absolute 'plainest', neither required a half hour, with the stone, and no pins, etc, only a bit of work, with the return spring, to come in safely, and reliablya little less than two pounds.
    Now, thes are 50 year old 'grand parents', of the CZ527, of today; their 'Pedigrees', muddied by the politics of the time (Arab authors, with Czech Proofs? Really!), yet either of the rifles, with no knowledge of prior shooting, has swallowed 12-15 cases of ammo, since I have owned them, high quality ammo, I'll allow,and still will shoot under an inch, at 100 yds!
    Don's right on here!
    These are the rifles of the promised land!
    If you can find more gun, fot less, or equal money, please post what, an where; not 'robbing a widow' but 'free market' prices
    These, for over sixty years, are the best out there, IMHO>
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2007
  15. Don Buckbee

    Don Buckbee New Member

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    Stash,

    Great post! I enjoyed reading the history you wrote.
    I have two CZ 527's and two CZ 452's, all very fine rifles, with two of them have outstanding Walnut stocks. The accuracy from these rifles is excellent.
    The CZ 527's are chambered for 222 and 223. Each one will shoot three shots into a 3/8" group at 100 yards. The 452's are in 17HMR and 22 Rimfire. I've never measured groups shot with the 17, but they are good. The 22 Rimfire is one of the rifles with an excellent Walnut stock. I shot it two weeks ago, and the last group I shot with it measured 3/16" at 50 yards. That's the best group I've ever shot with a 22 sporter.

    Don
  16. stash247

    stash247 New Member

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    The rifle is obviously 'broke'!
    If you will ship it to me, I will try to fix it, and, if successful, ship it back; if not, I will gladly 'dispose' of it here, and save you the freight!
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2007
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