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Shooting black powder Guns with Smokeless powder Ammo

29K views 10 replies 7 participants last post by  gdmoody 
#1 ·
i've always heard you never shoot smokeless ammo in a black powder gun.

from what i understand it isnt the pressure created, but how fast the pressure rises that does the damage. thats why you cannot just shoot a reduced type load in a black powder gun.

i do not remember where i seen this, but i recall seeing an advertisement for either an old gun or an an old ammo/powder maker that said something like " this reduced smokeless load is safe for your old blackpowder gun"

if i recall it was from the 20's or the 30's.

if i recall correctly the mosin nagant rifle started as a black powder firearm. would they have done anything to the rifles to change them for use with smokeless powder?

and just when did it become generally accepted that you dont shoot smokeless powder in a black powder firearm?

from everything i've read about the switch between the two, smokeless was billed as the greatest thing since sliced bread and offered in all the old chamberings when it first came out.

~john
 
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#2 ·
If the loads are done with care and by an experienced reloader you can absolutely shoot smokeless in a BPC weapon. IMR manufactures trailboss which is a smokeless propellant acceptable for use in just about every BPC in existence. Unique is another good smokeless BPC propellant.

Now, that said, you should NEVER use smokeless loads in a damascus twist steel shotgun. You know what happens when bugs bunny hammers a cork into elmer fudds shotgun muzzle. they will do pretty much the same thing.

You would also want to be wary of inherently weak actions like the springfield trapdoors. and early leverguns.

Kepp in mind that with smokeless propellants, i little goes a loooong way...
 
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#5 ·
The problem is the steel used to make guns before the advent of smokeless powder. Most of it was not strong enough to take the fast rise time of the smokeless burn but totally capable of the slow, long burning rate of Black Powder. Once Smokeless powder was well entrenched in the gun industry, the quality of the steel went up. The turning point was somewhere around 1900. Of course, every manufacturer of that era had a different point where they upgraded to smokless powder steels and research is necessary to know what is right for your vintage firearm.

Even then the most of the steel we have today was not available until post WWII. The use of chrome-moly alloys and certain alloys of stainless steel makes todays guns tremendously stronger than earlier guns. Even stainless did not become prevalent until the 1970's and later as no one had figured out how to make the stainless steel alloys work adequately in a gun until S&W and others figured it out.

In the early parts of the the 20th century they had to rely on localized hardening of the metal and case hardening, making some of the guns from that era questionably strong. Over loading one of those guns is a gamble.

People who really know BP vintage guns, like Mike Venturino who has written several books on the use of BP in vintage guns, insist that only BP or modern replica BP powders be used in those guns. The guns are less harmed by the use of BP regardless that smokeless loads can be developed that seem to work OK.

Pick up one of the Venturino books that cover the vintage firearm of your choice. He is an excellent read and the books are loaded with very good advice and loading information.

LDBennett
 
#6 ·
It not ever a good idea to use smokeless in a muzzleloader because the bullet compresses the charge. most smokeless powders increase in pressure when compressed. with black, its the only way to get it to burn at all.

The use of smokeless is only acceptable if used in black powder cartridge (BPC) firearms, but, as stated before, it must be done properly and with great attention to pressures.
 
#7 ·
I don't presently own any true antique firearms. If I ever do I will reload for them with black powder and not chance a KB for no good reason. BP or its equivalents are not very expensive, why make problems?
 
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#8 · (Edited)
To be clear (if anyone even assumed something else??) my comments were for black powder cartridge guns, not muzzle loaders. Muzzle loaders should NEVER EVER be used with smokeless powder...EVER!!!!

Cartridge guns, rifles and pistols, made before 1900 (and some later than that depending on the manufacturer) are suspect when used with anything other than black powder. That was my point.

JLA:

I know you knew what I meant but I just wanted it to be perfectly clear to the uninformed.

LDBennett
 
#10 ·
i've always heard you never shoot smokeless ammo in a black powder gun.

from what i understand it isnt the pressure created, but how fast the pressure rises that does the damage. thats why you cannot just shoot a reduced type load in a black powder gun.
Kinda sorta, yes. Ironically, BP burns faster (much! faster) than smokeless unconfined. There is a classic formula for computing the burn rate of substances, something to the effect of kR^^p, where k is some constant (which basically establishes the initial rate of combustion) and the rate R, and the pressure exponent p which controls how much faster it burns as the pressure rises. For BP, R is really high, but the k & the p are tiny fractions [which can only be determined empirically by a couple of methods.] Smokeless powders, on the other hand, have a lower R, but a higher k & a coefficient p approaching 1 [or even greater than 1?], so as the pressure goes up, the burn rate R goes up even faster, which increases the pressure more, and you have a positive feedback loop. So BP time vs. pressure curves look more like a muffin top, whereas smokeless curves are more like a frosting "peak" that has a steep upward slope to a high point, and then a tapering back slope...

i do not remember where i seen this, but i recall seeing an advertisement for either an old gun or an an old ammo/powder maker that said something like " this reduced smokeless load is safe for your old blackpowder gun"
It can be done, but remember, that's only in a pre-loaded *cartridge*, where you have a volume, powder type, & bullet that can all be closely controlled...

if i recall correctly the mosin nagant rifle started as a black powder firearm. would they have done anything to the rifles to change them for use with smokeless powder?
No, the 3-Line Rifle began life under the Tsar as a smokeless load; you're thinking of the .303 British, which began life as a compressed BP load [think more like an Estes model-rocket engine] in the Lee-Metford rifle and morphed into a smokeless propellant load using Cordite [to avoid paying patent royalties to a non-Empire entity.]

and just when did it become generally accepted that you dont shoot smokeless powder in a black powder firearm?
When people who tried it blew up their guns [& sometimes themselves with it.]

from everything i've read about the switch between the two, smokeless was billed as the greatest thing since sliced bread and offered in all the old chamberings when it first came out.
~john
Yeah, it took them awhile to sort things out. There's a reason why BP loaded cartridges were still carried by most of the major suppliers all the way up to the Great Depression. One of the key reasons was that corrosive primers were still the norm, and the greater fouling residue left behind by BP tended to act as something of a sponge & "soak up" some of the primer fouling & keep it from corroding the bore before you got home & could clean it out. Once "stainless" (non-corrosive) primers became available, there was substantially less interest in maintaining BP loads for those cartridges that could sustain a modern smokeless load approximating BP pressures...
 
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