The Firearms Forum banner

Shotgun Brass Cartridges

3K views 18 replies 6 participants last post by  BobMcG 
#1 ·
I just stumbled upon something that I thought might be kind of cool. I was on a website, Huntingtons, looking at .243 dies, bullets and brass (haha :D) and stumbled across boxes of 410-12 gauge brass shotgun shells (cases?). They weren't expensive and they offered the die for I think $80 that would size and crimp. As I have a couple of old Winchester '97's I thought it might be fun to keep a box or two of the old stuff around. So I'm wondering what you folks think? I know absolutely nothing about this type of loading but might want to take a crack at it just for the experience. Can anyone give me some pointers one way or the other?

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
I haven't looked at their site in a long time but, I know Magtech makes them. Midway has them as does BPI. The 410 can be reloaded using 444 dies. RCBS has dies for the 12 gauge.
 
#3 ·
I have 'em in 12, 16 and 410. All of mine are made by MagTech, and take Large Pistol primers. When they first started showing up, they said "use black powder only", as there is no reloading data for them in any of the shotgun manuals.

I've been loading my 12s and 16s with Unique and my 410s with H110, and haven't killed myself yet. They require felt cushion wads, nitro cards and overshot cards. I get all them from Circlefly Wads. http://www.circlefly.com/

They are quite slow to make, compared to regular shotshell loading. You need to glue the overshot card in, and there are numerous suggestions of what to use. I use Elmers Wood Glue, myownself.

There would need to be a slight crimp on them, to feed through the magazine into the chamber of that 97. I use mine all in doubles, so there is no need for a crimp. I don't know how to crimp 'em. I did put a slight crimp on some 410s, just so see what happened. Blew the crimp off when I shot 'em. :eek:

They are fun. :D
 
#4 ·
As with Alpo I too use the Mag-Tech cases and also only in double guns, drillings and combination guns. I only have them in 16 bore. I think they're good and as Alpo mentioned they will require the use of the hard card and fiber wads and the overshot card. To date I've only used black powder in mine for my old pieces that are not Nitro proofed. RMC, (Rocky Mountain Cartridge) also makes them that I understand are suitable for use with the modern plastic wads. Mag-Techs aren't to be crimped but from those who use the RMC cases some do crimp them but annealing will be necessary to extend the life of the case due to overworking the brass at the case mouth. I want to agree with Alpo that a slight crimp will be necessary for proper function in a pump gun.

They are slower to reload but that has never been of any consequence for me. And, they do have a cool factor and are fun. It's surprising the number of folks who are completely ignorant of the fact that at one time brass shotgun shells were common....but then a lot also don't know that cartridges were originally loaded with black powder.

In two of my old guns I got surprisingly better patterns with the brass cases. I was hoping that would be the case but didn't expect the results to be as dramatic as they were. I cannot explain why....but am eternally grateful!
 
#5 ·
Thanks guys. Great information. I'll take it all to heart and down the road I'm sure it will be something I'll try.
 
#6 ·
I too use MagTech brass for my BP doubles in 16 & 12ga however, I buy bulk bags of primed plastic 10ga shells for that application as I haven't found any 10ga brass other than antique ones that go into my collection. Trimmed to the proper length, they load up the same way as the others. My old shotties are double guns with only one single so I don't require a crimp on my brass, which actually is far easier on the case. To seal the over shot card in place I use a little trick I learned a couple of decades ago which is by using a hot glue gun. Super fast, very efficient, and holds quite well.
I've only had the glue fail me once in many years of use and that was in a 12ga during winter at temps around zero after firing the right barrel. When I broke the action to reload the spent chamber the shot just poured out of the other. The only failure experienced though with a lot of winter shots under my belt.
 
#7 ·
I've heard people recommend hot glue. But I only use one wad, so there's an inch or more of empty space above the overshot card. The tip of a hot glue gun won't reach in that far.

Down here in the sunny Southland I've never had any come apart, but took 'em to a shoot in Wisconsin in early October, and had several come loose. Reckon the metal expanded and contracted too much, and broke the glue loose.
 
#8 ·
"....and broke the glue loose."

Yup, the reason I think the hot glue works as well as it does. The stuff is kinda rubbery and somewhat flexible, and seems to stay that way at least somewhat when it's a bit cold. Heck, there are silicones that would do a better job in the cold but I'm not going to bother to mess with them.
 
#9 ·
Sounds like you guys really know what you're doing. Out of curiosity, do you ever load BP or is it always smokeless? The reason I ask is that I've considered making BP cartridges (pistol) in the past but could never locate any load information. Be heard that you fill the case as much as possible leaving only enough room for the bullet. Seemed kinda sketchy to me. A little too subjective.
 
#10 ·
Nope, that's how it's done. For black powder, you need to have it compressed. You can fill he case and seat a bullet, or you can half fill the case and then top it off with grits or cardboard, or something else lightweight to take up the space, and then seat a bullet. However you do it, you must have compression on the powder.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I have and do shoot a lot of black powder in both cartridges and muzzleloaders. Alpo is essentially correct. For shotshells in my 16 bores I just dump 2 1/2 drams, (it's so close to 70 grains I use 70 grains), into the case followed by a hard card then the fiber wad, 1 ounce of shot and an overshot card. I use 12 bore wads because I have a pile of them. The brass cases accept them fine and they're tight. One thing I very recently learned when loading BP shells is after firing clean them very well. Otherwise after the shot the overshot card in the other shell(s) in the gun will pull loose and you hear the load of shot rolling down your barrel. After washing in hot soapy water, rinse, dry and I tumble mine. Then I use an appropriately sized bronze brush in a battery drill to really clean as far down as it will reach and finally wipe the inside of the case mouth with a cloth soaked in alcohol. Since I have been following that procedure I have not had an overshot card pull loose. The overshot card can be glued in with almost any glue you have....except obviously an epoxy. I use Duco cement as do many others. Hot glue guns and one variety or another of Elmer's is also popular. Traditionally water glass was used and some still use it. Waterglass is a silicate something or other and probably works best but I have never tried it. For 16 bore you can purchase an 11/16 arch punch and make all your own wads. The same is true of the other bore sizes but I don't know the correct sizes off the top of my head. For 45 cal. handguns and rifles 7/16 works well.

For me, for best results in rifle and handgun cartridges loaded with BP after sizing and priming I'll slowly trickle the appropriate charge of BP through a 24 inch drop tube into the case. The best analogy I've come up with is that this is akin to throwing firewood in the back of a pick-up as compared to neatly stacking firewood in the back of a pick-up. The powder is....condensed for lack of a better word. You will be able to get a good charge in the case and it will burn cleaner with greater accuracy. The powder charge needs to come to slightly higher in the case than where the base of the bullet will sit, 1/10 to 1/8 in. works well for me. That should give you all the compression you need upon seating the bullet. On top of the powder and beneath the bullet I seat a .030 card. They can be cut from about any cardboard of near that dimension, cereal boxes, florist boxes, wax milk cartons or you can buy pre-cut wads for the appropriate caliber. Seat the bullet and you're ready to fire.

I thoroughly enjoy BP cartridges in rifles and shotguns, not so much in handguns. The fouling goes everywhere and I feel as if I need to completely strip the revolver for proper cleaning. My Shiloh Sharps #1 Sporter in 40-70 will hold MOA out to 600 yards, benched and if I do my part and there is no wind. If I am not having an exceptional day, there is the slightest breeze or it's one of those beautiful days of a cobalt blue sky with the sky full of cumulous clouds floating by and changing the light, all bets are off!!!!

For bullet lube in BP cartridges use a soft lube, something preferably dedicated to BP, or if shooting jacketed bullets....there's something morally decrepit about that if shooting BP....you will probably need a grease cookie to keep the powder fouling soft. For use of the grease cookie you'll need to adjust your powder charge. The cookie goes in after inserting the card wad over the powder then add another card on top of the cookie before seating the bullet. Don't store cartridges loaded with a grease cookie where it's hot as the lube will flow past the cards and foul the powder charge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Firpo
#12 ·
I made a mistake that needs to be corrected. I hadn't loaded any shotshells in quite a while and the wads I use are the same as I used in a muzzleloading double 12 bore....and I mistakenly said I use 12 bore wads in the 16 bore hulls. Well...I was just out loading some shotshells, only had 3 left, and the wads are not 12 bore, they are 13 bore wads. They are tight but they work, 14 bore would probably work even better. My apologies for the error.
 
#13 ·
I load black powder only for my old "BP" shotguns, while using:

8ga nitro cards; 9ga circle fly wads; 8ga overshots, for loading primed, plastic 10ga shells.

11ga nitro cards; 10ga circle fly wads; 10ga overshots; Win. LP primers for loading brass 12ga shells.

14ga nitro cards; 14ga circle fly wads; 14ga overshots; Win. LP primers for loading brass 16ga shells.

10ga nitro cards can be used in the brass 12ga shells but, are very tight and hard to use. With the 10ga plastic shells, I find that the 8ga circle fly wads are too tight.
 
#14 ·
Alright gentlemen. It sounds like this is going to be a complete new deal for me. Obviously! Think I need to circle the wagons and think on this one. Get me an old side by and see how it goes. I know a lady that is selling one with a cracked stock on both sides by the upper tang. Maybe I'll check it out and let you know.
 
#15 ·
....I know a lady that is selling one with a cracked stock on both sides by the upper tang. Maybe I'll check it out and let you know.
A fairly common area for doubles to crack, hopefully they aren't too bad. Thin wood due to lots of inletting for the action plus stout recoil and, perhaps, not quite perfect wood grain running through the wrist area either, which is very important for the utmost strength that's needed there. Also, a lot of times there is a lot of gun oil built up in this area as well, after decades of the gun being oiled up and stored butt down and barrels up. The oil just migrates down into the wood where it is absorbed. This weakens the wood.

If the cracks look rather bad, you might want to remove the stock from the action and see just how bad. Additional rounds downrange could make them worse. If you can get some glue into the cracks do it. If oil is present in the wood, you want to hope there isn't so much it stops the glue from working. Oil can be removed from the wood but that can be an ordeal.

I've had to do some repairs in this area on some old shotties myself, although these all went down the road eventually. I got my use out of them and slowly evolved my collection into higher quality doubles.

Good luck, have fun, stay safe.
 
#16 ·
#19 ·
Thanks for the heads up.

Yes, I do business with Buffalo Arms, and yes, those machined hulls go for more :eek: than what I want to spend. I just wish MagTech made 'em.
 
#17 ·
so if reloading 410 brass shotshells do you use the plastic thing with the fingers to hold the shot? (not sure what that thing is called)
 
#18 · (Edited)
It's called a wad. Actually the bottom, kinda solid piece, is the wad and the fingers-part is the shot cup, but they call 'em wads when they sell 'em.

There's a couple of thoughts on that.

You can do as I do - charge, nitro card, felt wad, shot, overshot card glued in place.

Or you can do charge, plastic wad with fingers, shot, overshot card glued in place. The bottom of the wad cup takes the place of the nitro card over the powder.

Or you can do kinda half and half. Cut the bottom (wad part) off, and use the felt wad, but still use the top (shot fingers) to hold the shot, as the plastic fingers help prevent the shot from deforming on the trip down the barrel, so you have a better pattern. With this you still need the nitro card, and of course you still need the overshot card. So it's powder, nitro card, felt wad, fingers, shot-in-fingers, overshot card.

Graphics Still life photography Plastic


Oh yes, one other thing. The plastic wads are designed for paper or plastic shells. Both of these have thicker shell walls than metal shells do. Because of this, it is possible that if you do option 2, you will still need a nitro card between powder and shell cup, as the shell cup might be a little loose in the hull, which would reduce pressure on the powder, and you get a FFFFFTTTT instead of a BOOM. That's why someone back up the thread is talking about using 11 gauge wads in a 12 or 14 gauge wads in a 16. Thinner hull walls with same OD means the ID is slightly larger, and the correct 12 or 16 gauge wads would be a sloppy fit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Firpo
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top