SHTF Scenario

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by Palmetto, Aug 12, 2010.

  1. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe New Member

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    Old Grump, I hope to meet you for some of the fear and loathing in Las Vegas, but your 10 ga. won't reach any farther than my 870. That's why I got the AK. By the time you've fired a coupla' shots from that thing, your shoulder will be part of the mess. Maybe if you just stand on some kinda' turn table when you fire, it'll spin you around about 30 times, but it won't hurt.
    No need for the fire hose. We have lots of Grackles here, who like fresh meat in little pieces.
    I've seen your posts on other forums. If TSHTF, I hope we understand really soon that we're on the same side!
  2. Jeff Midguard

    Jeff Midguard New Member

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    Shooting Times does have a lot of good ballistics info. For a point of reference it is commonly recommended that you have at least 1000 fp of energy to kill a deer. Assuming it takes roughly the same to take down a person you would need at least a 55 gr .223 bullet to be effective past 100 yds. None of the ammo listed would work at 200.
    That's about where you lose velocity for expansion also. Might work up close, but I would still prefer a larger projectile. Your AK would be ideal out to about 150 yds. Beyond that, something in .308 or so. I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to confront an armed attacker with a .22.
  3. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe New Member

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    We run into some academic differences here. You say that one needs no less than 1,000 ft.# in a rifle bullet, while others say that any more than 700 ft.# is wasted in a pistol cartridge. Compare that to a shotgun blast, where there are just a good many holes being poked into the bad guy.
    In my tests with wet phone books, I found that the wound track from a double tap with a .22 rifle closely approximates that of a good JPH, from a 9mm. A .22 caliber bullet is the same dia. as a pellet of #4 buck shot, but is ballistically far superior. I wouldn't suggest that one rely on a .22 as their sole defensive weapon, but if that's all you have at the time, it can serve you well, if you know where to put the bullet, and always fire more than once. Hit a knee, and he can't use that leg. Hit a shoulder, and he can't use that arm. Hit him anywhere, and he's gonna' get really sick, really quick. For the most part, the average "evil doer" is not the same class of soldier as the combatants of the last civil war.
    As for being "limited" to 150 yards, it gets hard to say whether one should be shooting or putting more distance between himself and the opponent. In a military engagement, where the objective is to over-run and decimate the enemy, one might continue the fight. In a clash between Joe Citizen and one or more gang bangers, it would be stupid of me to stand instead of run, and it would be stupid of them to close the distance, once they knew that I'm shooting accurately.
  4. Claude Clay

    Claude Clay New Member

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    no deep thought here, but as i am located 7 miles from an inner-city, i would stay in place till they had all trapsed past my place. evaluate the situtation (what happened/is now happenning/likely to occure short & long term). i'm able to convert my oldest car to not-high energy operation/no computers. if social unrest caused by EMP than im headeed to vermont.

    45acp Kimber with its red-dot attached gets me 6" at 100 yards--same if i change to its 22lr slide. rem 700 in 308 also is 6", though now its at 1000 yards. p3at for a hold-out gun.
    my wife would what she does best: 20 gauge pump, BHP and a NAA 22lr for a hold-out gun
  5. The_Rifleman

    The_Rifleman New Member

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    I killed a deer with my 357mag at 65 yards, the energy came to less than 400ft-lbs yet the bullet passed through breaking a rib on the way out.

    Claiming the AK can't go beyond 150 yards is absolutely false. The AK 7.62x39 round is ballistic-ally equivalent to another underrated round, the 30-30, (which I happen to reload for.) By you own "1000 fp of energy to kill a deer" benchmark, my load of choice will be viable at twice the distance you claim. Of course, if I go by tried and true killing energy, (less than 400ft-lbs,) about 800 yards.

    But... energy isn't what I look for when judging effective range. I go by velocity, specifically when the bullet drops below the speed of sound; whereas accuracy will diminish greatly... Which is around 650-700 yards using the Hornady 150gr SST with a muzzle velocity of 2170fps. At that distance it will have an energy of what my 357 has at 25 yards using 158gr bullets, (450ft-lbs or so.)

    There is a lot more to ballistics than citing a chamber dimension then proclaiming a specific effective range.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  6. Old Grump

    Old Grump New Member

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    Getting back to the poor forgotten OP he made the suggestion that a 22 would be a good survival rifle and in that he is correct. I also shoot it a lot and I have more than three tims as much 22 as I do all my other calibers put together. Beware the old country boy in is bib overalls and denim jacket. You wont see him in the woods but he will see you no matter what camouflage brand Boogerman is sporting. He can pick a boogerman off at 100 yards, get 2 or 3 more shots off and people won't even know they are under attack untill bodies start falling or bleeding and they head for cover. Old man in denim jacket backs away to his fall back position because he isn't about to stand and do combat with a squad of ne'er do wells. Jump him on his home ground though and forget the 22. Any gauge shotgun at 40 yards or the old deer hunting rifle daddy gave him when he was 12 out to 200 yards will make boogermen very unhappy. 30-30 or .243 or 300 Wby mag, it doesn't matter what he has in the closet as long as he can shoot it.

    By the way my 10 gauge has a 36" barrel, a full choke and a beautiful butt pad. It is no problem getting off half a dozen shots and still be able to function. Little tender the next day but still functional. Can't say the same for the 30-06 or the .348 or the 300 Wby. M1 Garand yes but one of the bolt actions with the hunting loads I use, Whoa Mama.
  7. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe New Member

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    Well Gentlemen, the proverbial "S" may well be in the process of hitting the fan. It's only the first stirrings of a story, but on this site:
    http://www.debka.com/
    we read that Ahmeni&*%$^^jad has put Israel on notice to expect an attack in early October (Right NOW), because the Stuxnet worm has been traced to Israeli origin. Keep an eye on this. When Israel committed this cyber attack, it was an act of war, aimed at disabling the Iranian nuclear program. It crippled millions of defense and industrial computers throughout Iran. If this expands to a clash that includes US involvement on behalf of Israel, we can expect terrorism from the huge Muslim populations in America and England. Make all preparations for very heavy weather.....
  8. duane5157

    duane5157 New Member

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    First off most of the ninja warriors here would **** their pants if taking fire. Secondly you use what you have or yu takewhat you need. If the shtf you need to be on the offensive. Just remember a kid with a knife can kill you just as quick as an adult. If you have to beat a man to death with a stick then thats what you do. Remember most people would rather die than think. Now that I stirred the pot, lets hope you all never have to go into combat, cause it aintt like the movie. Duane 5157
  9. Hatch

    Hatch Former Guest

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    Yeah but isnt this the same lunatic shitbird that went to the UN and said he had a halo or something? And he's all buddy buddy with our other good friend "Hello President" Chavez...

    I mean really... nothing has changed, if he wants to attack Israel... roll the dice and take the chances... we're obligated to defend them and we've got resources in place to do exactly that. I think he'd like to provoke an attack like Iraq got prior to their reactors going live... and then be on the world stage with ZILLIONS of inspectors counting body parts and none of them saying anything about Iranian nuclear ambitions...

    it's a setup... a PR gig. he's not that bright.
  10. Hatch

    Hatch Former Guest

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    AK's actually need range to BECOME effective... thats why mother russia switched to the AK-74. There's not enough energy delivered on target with the 7.63x39 at standard combat ranges, they decided to copy us and go with a lighter round that drops energy on the target at shorter ranges.


    That doesnt mean the other poster is right though.. AK will ruin your day at 300 yards, and a lot further if the shooter is any good.
  11. Hatch

    Hatch Former Guest

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    whats wrong with planning ahead and having your own larder and being prepared?

    Anyone's who preparations begin with "take whats needed" is gonna be sleepy around here... dirt naps can be dangerous :D
  12. Regular Joe

    Regular Joe New Member

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    How can anyone say that 7.62x39 needs range to BECOME effective? This may be true of FMJ ammo in some bizarre way that I've never considered, but with HP or SP ammo, velocity = effect.
    I doubt that "real battle" has very much of anything to do with SHTF, though one can also imagine that every conceivable scenario would be played out, all over the place. If there are organized military units fighting against civilians, Rambo will be that guy who died tired, because he was running.
    I think random and very localized battle will be much more common, in a state of general anarchy/chaos.
    Run with any scenario you prefer.
    As for grabbing what you need, I think it's vitally important to figure that out beforehand. If you have 28,000 guns in the safe, it won't mean a thing unless you have picked out ONE rifle, ONE pistol, and a decent ammo supply for each.
    If you keep a bug-out bag, that's even better.
    Let's just imagine that you're at work one day, around 2 pm, caught up in whatever you're doing. One of your fellow workers comes by and tells you that there's something big going on. There are fires at the airport, and fighting in town. How long would it take you to get your whole act together, and be ready to engage hostiles from your prepared defensive position?
  13. Palmetto

    Palmetto New Member

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    You are much better off as a group vs. trying to go it alone. Maybe your church or other organization would be a good place to join others. Churches are everywhere.
  14. dualsportrider

    dualsportrider New Member

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    Lots of Great advice here! You really should have bigger calibers, that being said you should also get a good 22 cal rifle and handgun. If things were really that bad and you had to expend all of your large caliber ammo the 22 may be all that you have left which is better than nothing.
  15. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Active Member

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    A .223 for anything farther than the end of my driveway. Anything closer gets to talk to the Glock-21 or it's brothers and sisters.
  16. graehaven

    graehaven Active Member

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    The "church" (Christian people) are some of the MOST under-prepared for ANYTHING that comes down the pipe, but, especially for TEOTWAWKI. IMHO
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