Snubby Tactics

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by kilogulf59, May 9, 2008.

  1. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

    May 2, 2008
    Tranter, agreed and doubtlessly for many shooters the automatic pistol is the way to go, especially if ammunition capacity and rapid reloading ease are the concerns. Nonetheless, there are always pros, cons, and tradeoffs in every selection and I will not go into the revolver vs. automatic issue here.

    I believe that one must assess their day-to-day life, and their world that is around them, to determine what may work optimally for them. This is where the revolver’s long standing popularity comes into play or so it would seem. One, its inherent safety and simplicity, and two, the general conditions of armed encounters really have not changed over the years. However, I need not delve into detail here, as I am sure the members are familiar with that subject matter.

    Tranter, perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement - “By the way, you mention the 'stop and assess' thing. I used to agonise over that one. The thing is training will often kick in, taking away your choice. i.e. Threat is in front of you, you see what looks like a handgun, you grip yours, as you draw a bead his arm rises, it's over. 3/4 seconds topps. Scary? Dont carry.” - as the “stop and assess” option comes in after you have had to fire. Say you have engaged two assailants, put two shots apiece into them, you have one round left; an assessment is in order at this point. Options available are mentioned in previous posts above so I will not delve into them any further. Again, conceivably, I am misunderstanding you; it would not be the first time for me I assure you.

    Overall, the point of the thread starter was for folks to keep in mind the limitations of the 5-shot revolver so you are not inadvertently caught bare arsed at the worst possible moment.

    I should add one more comment, confrontational situations are not set in stone therefore neither should your training. Scenarios have unfolded where the attacker must be “shot to the ground” and others where the presentation of the weapon and a stop command solves the problem. Your instruction and practice must be adaptable thereby so are you.
    Last edited: May 25, 2008
  2. Chuck B

    Chuck B New Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    I've enjoyed the discussion...good points all around.

    I've got two questions: (1) does anyone know the statistical percentage of having to reload? I guess I would have thought it to be a very rare occurrence under most of the circumstances civilians face. I think it would also be interesting to know how many policemen have had to do a reload in the field. Or maybe another way of asking this would be: "what is the average number of shots fired in self-defense"? Just curious. I know when I start thinking about having extra mags, I'm usually thinking about scenarios from the last action movie I've seen where reloading is something of an art-form (like Lara Croft). And don't get me wrong...even if it's a 1 percent chance (or less) it is always best to be prepared for the worst. It's just a question I've had.

    And more importantly, (2): is there a classic or standard concealed carry text or manual that discusses a variety of possible scenarios and provides training instruction (suggested drills, etc. at the range)?

    Thanks...and God bless our troops and those who have given their lives for our freedom.


  3. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

    May 2, 2008
    “I've enjoyed the discussion...good points all around.” I have as well Chuck and yes, admirable points have been made.

    In essence, the general scenario of an armed encounter is close range (room distance or less), low light, and few shots fired (usually less than five however the statistics vary slightly). This information is widely available and compiled my more than a few major police departments and the FBI. Additionally, many individuals have privately researched the subject and fundamentally, all have come to like conclusions.

    There are countless “how to” books available today. As usual, some good, some not so good and everyone has their way of doing things. By the way Chuck, there are many books available on-line in PDF version. In addition, much of this information is available on various websites. Contrary to what many would preach, “it ain’t rocket science”.

    In my opinion, some of the best information going is on sites geared towards women. An excellent site is called The Cornered Cat (and I have nothing to do with or any connections to the place). Talk about good, clean, and precise explanations…I keep meaning to write Mrs. Jackson with my compliments as I have recommended her site to my own wife and (grown) children amongst many others.

    As well Chuck, do not ignore the older classics. Remember people like Fairbairn & Sykes, Applegate, Brice, Jordan, Askins, Grant-Taylor, et al, wrote from practical experience NOT THEORY. As an example, even Ed McGivern’s book, “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting”, has some combat merit. Aside from his speed shooting, which is phenomenal, look at what he was teaching policemen in the 1930’s?

    Remember we are talking the technical aspects. The real key to close combat survival is in your head, man’s brain IS the ultimate weapon.

    OK, I think I’ll jump down from my soapbox and grab a cup of Joe…have a safe and reflective Memorial Day all and to all the Vets; Thank you very much, may God bless you, and may you find peace…what more can one say?
  4. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    Well I'm screwed. :(
  5. Choice of a self-defense weapon always involves trade-offs. I daresay most of us, if we knew we were going into a confrontation and assuming a handgun was the only weapon we could use, would opt for a larger-caliber, more powerful, higher capacity pistol or revolver. The problem is, obviously, that factors such as weight, concealability, and comfort do come into pragmatic application in everyday life. The J-frame snubbie is such a compromise. Essentially, one gives up the advantage of ammunition capacity for the advantages of concealability and comfort of carry. It all comes down to statistical probabilities. How many opponents is one likely to face at any one time? I certainly do agree that a "spray and pray" mentality with a J-frame is not the best tactic to apply. Against one, or even two opponents, five rounds should be at least sufficient.
  6. infidel_2_dabone

    infidel_2_dabone New Member

    Jul 21, 2008
    Correct me if Im wrong but the average suburban firefight doesnt go much past 2-3 shots fired.If your just going to the grocery store the 340PD should fit the bill just fine.
    Remember always keep your long gun close, like in your car trunk, the 340 should cover you till you can make your way to it..
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2008
  7. tgrif

    tgrif New Member

    Jul 23, 2008
    west central georgia
    I agree with infidel. My ccw weapon is for "in their gut" scenarios and to give me time to get to my long gun, be it rifle or shotgun. If the range is greater than FTF, I will try to back out and get to my long guns.
  8. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

    May 2, 2008
    ”Correct me if Im wrong but the average suburban firefight doesnt go much past 2-3 shots fired.If your just going to the grocery store the 340PD should fit the bill just fine.”

    Most likely true I2D and that undoubtedly explains the continued popularity on the 5-shot J-frame size revolvers.

    ”I agree with infidel. My ccw weapon is for "in their gut" scenarios and to give me time to get to my long gun, be it rifle or shotgun. If the range is greater than FTF, I will try to back out and get to my long guns.”

    Tgrif gunfights lasting more than a few seconds are exceedingly rare. You will undoubtedly be using whatever you have on you at the time so I would not rely on fighting your way to your long gun.

    One of the gurus came up with that slick sounding quote about supposedly fighting your way to your long-gun. That is oft sited, greatly misused, and certainly not what will actually occur as has been proven time and time again. One should focus on the threat(s) at hand and eliminate them immediately. If you move anywhere, it should be for cover (if your rifle or SG happens to be there so be it).
  9. Wise words, Kilo. In a military situation, using a handgun to fight one's way to a more powerful weapon like a rifle or shotgun may, at least at times, make some degree of sense. In a civilian confrontation odds are that what you have in your hand is all you are going to have. Against a single target, a 5-shot is likely enough, but what if one is faced with more than a single assailant? Hey, I like and carry a snubbie myself, but more and more often nowadays, I now carry a Glock 26 or 33 instead, along with an extra mag. Any sort of sustained firefight is highly unlikely, I agree, but I feel comforted having the capability available nonetheless. :cool:
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2008
  10. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

    May 2, 2008

    True sir, in a military situation shots fired usually indicates the start of a battle and that is going to be more than one assailant...:eek:

    I cannot say, for certain, how to handle multiple assailants with any firearm as the individual situations vary greatly. In a hypothetical confrontation fire two into the nearest threat, two into the second nearest, all the while you should be “getting’ outta Dodge” and pronto.

    One has to operate at their perceived threat level or as an old instructor said “everyone has their own reality”. If I were an inner-city detective serving felony arrest warrants I certainly would not be carrying a 5-shot snub-nosed revolver. Then again as “Joe Everyman” living in a Podunk town, it is probably all I would ever need. Conversely there is that one-in-a-billion occasion that, no matter how well you are prepared, you are just plain screwed.

    I prefer to asses my perceived threat level and move up one notch i.e. where I live and with my lifestyle, statistically I will never need a gun. Therefore, moving that up one, a 5-shooter, a reload, and a good folder will serve me in my reality just fine.

    The members at ICCF, most of whom are much more knowledgeable than “yours truly”, and I came up with a list of our key mindsets. Note the fact that equipment selection is not on the list.

    ICCF Key Mindsets

    Listed in order:

    1. Awareness/Alertness
    2. Self control (Coolness)/Acceptance (of the situation)
    3. Decisiveness
    4. Willingness (to do whatever it takes)
    5. Aggressiveness/Ruthlessness
    6. Self confidence/Know your yourself (abilities and limitations)
    7. Know your enemy (criminal mind set, attack indicators, etc)
    8. Training/Skill
    9. Speed/Surprise (of action)
    10. Knowledge of the law​

    People tend to focus on objects and equipment and elevate them to a much higher level of importance than they deserve. A $300 .38 revolver will “kill ya jist az dead” as a $2900 custom race gun will. We are the real weapons….and that is my point entirely.
  11. My answer to the 5-shot snubby was to go with a 7-shot snubby. My well worn Taurus. Rides in my jeans front pocket or my right hip IWB...the soft rubber grips plus an Uncle Mikes holster makes it very comfortable.

    I use 110 grain Hydrashocks. To get velocity to expand from short barrel. Recoil and blast/flash are much less than hotter/heavier .38 ammo.

    Attached Files:

  12. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

    May 2, 2008
    7-shooter, that's has to have some thickness to it?
  13. About like a .44 spl
  14. Delta, do you find the extra two rounds of a 7-shooter worth the cost in additional weight and bulk over a J-frame 5-shot? Just curious about your opinion on that. To me, the primary reason to carry a snubbie is its small weight and size, thus its greater concealability. I tend to prefer more rounds too, but if that need is there, I am far more likely to carry a mini Glock.
  15. I find the extra two rounds worth it because sh*t happens.

    Weight...Mine is an 817 alloy, at 21 oz. My old Taurus 85 steel 5-shot was 21 oz too. Fully loaded the 817 is the same weight plus the weight of 2 .38 spl bullets...I can't feel any difference at all. Keep in mind my PPK/s, which I carry very often, weights 23 oz. And my 1911 I strap on when my gut says so is as heavy as both of those together.

    I could of got the 617 Titanium, 7-shot .357, and lighter at 20 oz, for twice the price. I saw no advantage in that. And I'm not trying to even act like I want to shoot .357 out of a snubby. (A Ruger 101 2.25" is 26 0z for 5-shot .38 spl, 25 oz for .357)

    Size...what is the hardest part of your handgun to conceal? The grip. A factory 617/817 grip is no larger than Hogue rubber grips. From topstrap to bottom of the grip, an 817 is 0.6" longer/higher than an 85.

    Width...7-shot cylinder is 0.15 wider than a 5-shot model 85. Thats about the width of a pencil. Overall the dimensions look beefy/more bulky next to a little snubby, but in the holster there's little difference.

    So weight is too little to notice. Size difference from a 5-shot is less than you get when you load a grip extension in your baby-Glock, IMHO.

    Two HKS 7-shot speedloaders and a nylon double loader pouch from Midway is about $30.

    With my 1911, my load is 25 rnds. (3x8+1)
    PPK/s load is 22 rnds. (3x7+1)
    817 load is 21 rnds (3x7)

    I shoot the same drills, same amount of targets, with all 3 handguns...I couldn't do so with a 5-shot.

    IWB carry, If I can see the grip of the 817 in my t-shirt any given day out, I pull it out, drop in my PPK/s, slide off the loader pouch, replace with mag pouch on belt, and that's that.

    Hope I didn't over explain, man. But like I said if you could conceal a .44 spl snubby, you can a 617/817 too.

    p.s. S&W 7-shot 386 Nightguard price turned me away, and although it is a lightweight little heater, it's a few ounces heavier than Taurus snubs. (Basically for every $100 you pay S&W over the Taurus, you get 1 oz more weight than the Taurus 817. The 686 stainless is 7-shot, but fully as heavy as you'd expect from a steel revolver.) I like S&W but when they get my money it'll be for the Model 22/update of classic 1917 .45 acp...that's one sexy 6-shooter:D:D:D
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