Stupid Question - be nice....

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 3, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (4/1/01 1:19:12 pm)
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    Maybe this is the wrong forum, but at least I trust you guys to laugh at me nicely!

    Cock on open vs. Cock on close...

    I've ALWAYS considered any BA in which the striker came back and locked WHEN THE BOLT HANDLE IS RAISED to be "...on open," and any in which the bolt had to be fully cycled and the striker only cocked when the bolt handle is LOWERED to be "...on close." Is this right????

    My reason is thus...I've read for decades in several sources the Mosin Nagant is a "cock on closing" action. This is always seen as a detraction. Also, on GB, a discussion on actions also said the MN was less desirable "because you had to get used to the 'cock on closing(!)'"

    My point...I've owned 16 or 17 MNs since I got my C&R and EVERY ONE cocks on opening. You lift the bolt, it cocks and locks back. If you immediately close without cycling the bolt back at all, it will fire when you pull the trigger.

    What am I missing, is my definition wrong, or are all these "experts" wrong? The only source I can find now that says "On close" is John Batchelor, and I've found errors in his otherwise good books before...

    Set me straight, Bob, Doc, or anybody...

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 4/1/01 1:20:34 pm

    Bob In St Louis
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    (4/1/01 7:15:35 pm)
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    You know, that is a question that has troubled me before, and I am not really certain what the real definition on "cock on opening" vs "cock on closing" is (although a couple of crude jokes come to mind). This may be a question for one of our gun smith types like Tye.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 146
    (4/1/01 7:35:30 pm)
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    Bob have you heard people say MNs were on close?

    I sure as heck think they're "on open..."

    But maybe all mine were "rare specials" and I got screwed when I sold some of them so low!!!

    An old timer told me once "cock on open" allows you to recock by lifting then lowering the bolt and trying to refire a misfire, but with a "on close" you had to eject and reinsert the cartridge.

    While I've never done this, you sure could do this with a Mosin!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (4/1/01 7:46:32 pm)
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    Bob, is there another forum that might be better for 'smith questions?

    Bob In St Louis
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    (4/1/01 7:56:46 pm)
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    You might try over on Matthew's place and try to get Tye's attention, or try posing the question again up in the general forum.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    obelix2
    Registered User
    Posts: 32
    (4/1/01 7:58:01 pm)
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    I just had to run check, naturally. Mine are also apparently all rare variations.

    polishshooter
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    Posts: 153
    (4/2/01 9:42:48 am)
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    Now I can't even find where Batchelor said it...I KNOW I read it somewhere about MNs, and anyway, there were several "experts" on GB who said so. I remember posting a reply to them about it and no one got back to me...

    AntiqueDr
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    (4/3/01 6:35:57 am)
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    In my experience, cock on opening means just that. Lifting the bolt handle cams the cocking piece back to where the sear will hold it when the bolt is closed. Cock-on-closing means the sear forces the cocking piece back as the bolt is closed (1891 Mauser, for example).

    Unfortunately, I dont know crap about MN's.


    Purveyor of Fine Firearms to the Enlightened Few
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (4/3/01 9:15:30 am)
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    Bob or I would be HAPPY to sell you one, Doc!

    Just to help expand your already vast knowledge, of course!

    EVERY gun nut needs at least ONE Sergi/Emile!!

    Bob In St Louis
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    Posts: 144
    (4/3/01 8:05:36 pm)
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    Yeah - I'll trade you a half dozen of them for that Campo Giro!
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    obelix2
    Registered User
    Posts: 53
    (4/3/01 8:16:25 pm)
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    Bob, seems like a good place to ask you about those Civil War emergency 400s. forobosco@superpa.net really wants to know, even though they may be beyond his means.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 182
    (4/6/01 12:31:39 am)
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    Oh the SPANISH Civil War!!!! I stared at this post for like 20 minutes trying to figure out what the heck you guys were talking about. LOL (LOL Again!)

    Next time Ob, add "Astra" in front of the 400 and it'll do wonders for not keeping a polak in suspense!!!

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 4/6/01 1:32:49 am

    obelix2
    Registered User
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    (4/6/01 8:20:59 am)
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    Sorry, Polish; I wasn't thinking. And when I say "Revolution" I'll add "Mexican" or "Russian," or whatever my peculiar obsession happens to be at that moment.

    Bob In St Louis
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 148
    (4/6/01 9:10:04 pm)
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    I thought about the two plain grip Astra 400s I have, but I am really not enclined to let go of them right now - kinda part of the series in my collection. If I can come up with another one, I will cull one of them out of my collection for sale.
    Support the Dead Party, vote Harry S. Truman for Missouri Senate in 2002!

    obelix2
    Registered User
    Posts: 70
    (4/7/01 2:38:36 pm)
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    Bob, nothing personal, but I hate you. Why? Because I understand completely. If I had those Astras (or even some of the English Translations), I would react in exactly the same way.

    If you ever decide to move on to Irish Republican guns -- no, wrong example. If you ever decide to shift to Swedish or Swiss weapons, you know where to find me.



    WyomingSwede
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    (4/17/01 7:03:33 am)
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    Gotta say "Atta boy for the swedish weapons" but I have had some people jump me about some of the cock on closing mausers and have to say...I think its academic. If it bothers you have it changed...doesnt affect how the rifle shoots anyway...
    Wyoming Swede

    Kdubya
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    (4/17/01 10:13:06 pm)
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    Back to the original question - Open cocking or Close cocking:
    Yes - if the bolt cam recocks and set the sear on the firing pin when initially lifting the bolt, it is "Cock on Opening". If the sear/firing pin remains dormant until shoving the bolt into battery and lowering the bolt handle, it is "Cock on Closing".
    Now, the reasons for differing the cocking:
    A bolt that cocks on opening gives you full power to strip a round from the magazine and thrust it into the chamber with no additional resistance as results with cocking on closing. And, yes the capability of restriking a primer with the lifting of the bolt handle is provided. Some people (and I hope never to be around one) consider it desirable to chamber a round while keeping the trigger depressed, lowering the bolt and leaving the sear uncocked until deciding to lift/lower the bolt handle to recock the weapon. For some reason, they consider this a safety factor - !
    A bolt that cocks on closing gives you unrestricted force to open the bolt and extract the fired casing - a very desirable function in combat when the actions can become fouled with debris and powder residue. It is felt that there is more thrust force available to ram the bolt home, cocking the piece that in the pulling force lifting a bolt vertically to cock and extract.
    Where possible, I convert all my "cock on closing" rifles to "cock on opening", as that's the way all my commercial rifles are and I want them all the same.
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 298
    (4/18/01 10:26:05 pm)
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    So Kdub, the MNs ARE on opening, right?

    I've heard, and had a guy on GB claim they were on close, I questioned him, but he didn't get back...

    Enfields and now I know SOME mausers are on close, what other Military are?

    Good to see you back Swede old friend...

    Kdubya
    Moderator
    Posts: 141
    (4/18/01 10:33:56 pm)
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    Well, of course, the Swedish Mauser is a cock-on-closing.
    The Enfield gained it's reputation for speed by being a c-o-c weapon, along with it's extra smooth action.
    The P-17 Enfield is a c-o-c'r.
    Wasn't the Remington Mod 30, which is basically a P-17 action, also a c-o-c'r?
    Keep off the Ridgeline!!
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