Swat team shoots Marine 22 times

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by 45nut, May 27, 2011.

  1. 45nut

    45nut Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,462
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    click here

    Bloody hell. Where has the 4th Amendment gone???

    Questions of excessive force are once again being raised, this time in Tucson, Arizona after a SWAT team fired over 70 times at a 26-year-old former Marine during a drug raid that has yet to turn up any evidence against the now deceased soldier. Questions are also being raised after the SWAT team changed its story, first saying that Jose Guerena had fired on them, but later retracing that. A new report says Guerena’s gun was never fired and never taken off safety. And now, video from the team shows the deadly raid:


    KGUN-TV explains what happened the morning of May 5:

    As the SWAT team prepares to serve their search warrant on Jose Guerena’s home one of the first things they do is turn on their sirens. After eight seconds the siren is turned off and we hear the team announce their presence.

    “Police, search warrant open the door,” an officer screams on the audio file.

    Moments later the door is busted open. The video shows officers start entering the home when shots ring out for a full seven seconds nonstop. An officer is seen falling out of the doorway as the shooting stops.

    The team backs out of the house, unknowing they had struck the suspect. They use their PA system to call out to anyone in the home.

    “This is the Pima County Sheriff’s Department we need you to come to the front door with your hands up.”


    Five minutes after SWAT arrives, evacuations of the neighborhood get underway. In the audio it’s clear the team begins to regroup.

    “Everybody relax at this point. Whoever was up at the door, do a quick check of each other to make sure we‘re covered and we’re good. Make sure no one has got holes in them ok,” an officer said.

    According to the Daily Mail, the officers originally claimed Guerena fired on them. But a police report later found that to be false:

    A police investigation revealed that officers fired more than 70 shots.

    Deputies said they opened fire after Guerena, 26, gestured at them with an AR-15, according to the report.

    Some of the officers said they believed that Guerena fired on them, but the investigation showed that no shots were fired from the weapon and it was never taken off the safety position.

    Police allege that the former Marine was involved in drug smuggling, robbery and human smuggling.

    But a search of the home found nothing illegal. Officers found a handgun and body armour in the house.

    The five SWAT team members remain on active duty. No criminal charges have been filed and no disciplinary action taken.

    Mr Guerena’s wife, Vanessa, said she heard her husband moaning as he lay dying, his body struck by 22 of the bullets.

    Ms Guerena told ABC News: ‘I saw his stomach, all the blood on the floor’.

    She said her goal now is to ‘clear his good name’. Ms Guerena said their son Joel keeps asking about his deceased father, ‘Is he a bad guy?’

    A lawyer for the SWAT team defended the officers’ actions, saying it’s clear that the team announced itself and gave the victim a chance to respond. When they saw a gun, they had to respond:

    “In your opinion, is this now cut and dry once you see the video?” KGUN9 asked. “Yeah, you watch the video and clearly you hear sirens, you see them (SWAT) approach, you see them knock and announce several times. Clearly, anyone in the area will know police were there,” explained SWAT lawyer Mike Storie.



    And, lots of them, SWAT admits to firing 71 shots in just seven seconds. After the shooting, the Pima County Sheriff‘s Department Lieutenant Michael O’Connor explained that number of shots, “They’re going to fire until the threat is over. (SWAT) fired in seven seconds.”

    And, Storie told us there was a threat; a gun pointed right at them. The deputy to the right of the shielder, Storie said, saw it first, “The person above his right shoulder will be the first one who is looking down the hallway who will see the gun turning the corner and being raised towards them.”
  2. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,449
    Location:
    Indiana
    I don't know anything more about this story than just the article you posted, but I don't think the SWAT team necessarily did anything wrong. They ran the siren, then they announced themselves and that they had a search warrant.

    When the door wasn't opened, they came in. They were met by a suspect who was pointing an AR at them.

    They got the search warrant. That, to me, sounds like a reasonable search. I don't think the Fourth Amendment was violated here.
  3. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,004
    Location:
    in a motorhome where ever we park!
    umm violation of 4th..no maybe not..excessive force..maybe..lets think this through..

    no time is given, but usually this is done either late nite or early morning..people are in bed sound asleep..looked like he was exiting a bedroom..now 8 sec of sirens..ya that would wake someone up ..you sit up confused..something police..wife urging you to hurry, be carefull or whatever..grab pants pull on..hear door being busted down..still groggy..grab rifle..start through the door..get hit 70 times..die...

    good story yes? thats what will be presented in court..could this be you in the same situtation?

    excessive force maybe...have we heard of the same thing before...yes..was the outcome the same? NO, the officers did not shoot but took the extra time to yell "POLICE" one last time and saw the barrel drop to the floor..good thing too as they were of course in the wrong house..my son is alive today thanks to the proper restraint of those OFFICERS..

    so i have mixed feelings on this story..could this death have been prevented with just 2 seconds of restraint? we will never know now and at least ONE familys live has been ruined because of it..mabe more as it goes to court..
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  4. permafrost

    permafrost Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,791
    Location:
    Oklahoma, USA
    If I woke up to sirens and police, and was not involved in criminal activity, I might think something was going down at a neighbors. I would probably grab a weapon, thinking I might have to protect my own family. I wouldn't immediately throw the door open either. Admittedly, this is just one scenario and I have no clue as to actual facts, but isn't this a plausible response?
  5. jbmid1

    jbmid1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,315
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  6. 45nut

    45nut Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,462
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    yeah, sorry, it was late. 4th violation meh, but excessive force maybe.

    I'd just like to think that since he was a veteran they would have yelled police one more time.

    I know if I heard all that I would answer my door clothed with a weapon in my hand. So, maybe I'm the fool. If they want to talk to me, call me on my cell. :eek: :D I know even Marines can go bad and the gangs do send members into the military to get trained, so maybe I'm the dufus.
  7. Big ugly

    Big ugly New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,682
    Location:
    Knoxville Tennessee
    When the Preble County Drug Task Force entered my friends house they done the same thing as here. Only this time the feller actually had a firearm in his hand. When they shot Clayton he did not have a firearm in his hand. Not to mention they fired at another member through a closed door hitting him, his girlfriend was behind him, if she would have been in front they would have killed her too.

    I imagine the swat team mentioned here were better trained than the one in Rural Ohio, and in the situation the tension was high. But these swat teams need to show some restraint, in this case the mans family was in the house. 70 rounds in close proximity with a small child in the same residence is too much. And in the factor that the man was hit 22 times out of 70 rounds and at close range, that is 48 rounds unaccounted for. There are several factors here pointing to the same thing. Criminal or not this is a prime example of excessive force. These Swat teams need to show some more restraint while discharging their weapons.
  8. Inthewind1976

    Inthewind1976 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Central Pennsylvania
    So, lemme see................the police ran a siren and knocked on the door of a potentially SLEEPING man, in his own home, with his wife and son in there as well. The police fired 70+ rounds in 7 seconds, and hit the guy 20+ times. Then they searched the house and found nothing. I dont give a damn how "legal" the search was, or how much you wanna say that they "ran the siren" and knocked, WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MINDS THINKS THIS IS IN ANY WAY appropriate? Come on America. I have heard all the arguments about how tough a job it is for law enforcement, but I cant see any possible way to justify this particular outcome. Little bitta WACO, here? How about not attacking the house like the guy inside is gonna set of a nuke? What possible reason could they have for needing to be "in control of this man" in that exact 7 second period? Im sorry, but I just personally think that the whole "gangbusters" approach to law enforcement has proven time and time again to be the WRONG approach. Was this guy gonna escape, carrying 37 tons of drugs on his person through his secret tunnel? Surround the place and then give the man the appropriate opportunity as a HUMAN BEING to address the charges against him. I have mentioned over and over on here that I not only used to work in government, and with LEO's of all levels and many of my personal friends are active or retired LEO's, and I am generally supportive of the issues and dangers that LEO's face, BUT.................THIS WAS BS, and so are all the Ruby Ridge and Waco situations, and this one is no different, that occur with alarming frequency and regularity.
  9. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    4,317
    Location:
    Goodyear, Arizona
    The papers here all say he was hit ""60" yes sixty times. and he could not have fired a shot because the safety was engaged on his rifle. I am very pro police but this was a case of way over reaction. They found no drugs or any other type of counter band in his trailer. His only crime was living between two bad guys, so in the eyes of the law I guess that made him guilty.:(. This shooting really bothers me, hell, it could have happened to me, somebody breading down my door in the middle of the night?
  10. Python

    Python Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    676
    Location:
    Arizona
    Welcome to the New and Improved America. Change (BS) we can count on.
  11. Big ugly

    Big ugly New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,682
    Location:
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Here is the Dayton Daily News Paper account of what had happened to my friend Clayton, Mind you this it what the police told the paper and also some info that the paper dug up on their own.
    ___________________________________________________________________
    THE DEATH OF CLAYTON HELRIGGLE

    A Deadly Raid

    Shooting Prompts Questions About Lack of Training, Poor Planning, And an Encounter at an Eaton Bar

    EATON - After an evening of heavy drinking on Sept. 17, off-duty Preble County sheriff's Deputy Terry Petitt flirted with a group of men half her age at the 230 Club in downtown Eaton, paying special attention to 23-year-old Clayton Helriggle, witnesses said.

    "( Petitt ) wanted us to touch the hole in her jeans," located in the upper thigh area, Tim Suter, a high school classmate of Helriggle's who was at the bar that night, later told investigators.

    Petitt, 44, "really took a liking to Clayton," Suter said.

    Before Petitt threw up into a wastebasket and was taken home, Suter said, she hugged and kissed the three men at the far end of the bar -- Suter, Helriggle and his roommate Ian Albert -- and exchanged sexual banter.

    Petitt told the group "she was getting divorced," Suter said. "She mentioned she had a son our age -- the age thing was an issue. She could teach us young ( guys ) a few things."

    Ten days later, on Sept. 27, Helriggle lay dead in an ill-fated drug raid led by Petitt's husband, Detective George Petitt Jr., 54, then commander of the Preble County Emergency Services Unit. Terry Petitt, too, was in on the raid, assigned to guard the perimeter of the house at 1282 Ohio 503, south of West Alexandria.

    Minutes after the shooting, Terry Petitt trained her weapon on a blood-soaked Albert, in whose arms Helriggle died inside the house.

    Terry and George Petitt have not commented about the events of Sept. 27, and the days leading up to it. But an 800-page supplemental report of more than 50 interviews by the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office special investigations unit, reveals previously undisclosed details about the scope of the failed planning and execution that resulted in Helriggle's death.

    Members of the main entry team had just four hours of tactical training in the nine months leading up to the raid. Others at the Helriggle farmhouse that evening had never trained with the team, and found themselves in unfamiliar roles as the plan changed during the critical early moments. The information used to obtain a search warrant was largely based on overheard conversations, a few hours of surveillance and the word of a convicted felon who had recently lied to a court to remain free on bond.

    One expert said more small, rural police departments, using mostly inexperienced and largely untrained officers, are practicing a dangerous game: urban, guerilla-like warfare. He calls it the "militarizing of Mayberry."

    "( Preble's unit ) certainly fits the dangers of jumping into something like this with no real training," said Peter B. Kraska, a University of Eastern Kentucky criminal justice professor.

    The use of special weapons teams to force their way into private residences "should occur only when you have overwhelming evidence that this is a large drug operation and the people inside are known to be armed and dangerous," Kraska said. "That kind of situation comes up very infrequently; hardly ever in small communities."

    A grand jury concluded that no police officer engaged in criminal wrongdoing, nor did any of Helriggle's four roommates. A Montgomery County sheriff's investigation also determined that Helriggle had a gun -- not a plastic cup as a witness first claimed -- when he descended the stairs during the commotion of the raid.

    But an administrative review has been launched of the mistakes that contributed to the fatal shooting, and the victim's family is pursuing legal action.

    Investigators also examined whether George Petitt had a hidden motive for pursuing a drug raid at the Helriggle house: his wife's friendliness toward Helriggle on Sept. 17 at the 230 Club.

    During a Nov. 1 interview with Montgomery County sheriff's investigators, Terry Petitt acknowledged being at the 230 Club but initially denied having any "contact" with Helriggle.

    Later, in the same interview, she said she knew Helriggle was at the bar and recognized Albert when he was led from the house the night of the shooting.

    Montgomery County Sheriff's Detective Greg Laravie then asked: "At any time did you discuss what happened in the 230 Club with your husband as far as seeing Clayton Helriggle?"

    "Absolutely," she said. "He knew all about it."

    "Did he know about it prior to the search warrant?" Laravie asked.

    "I don't know," she said. ". . . I'm not sure if George and I were separated at that time or not. I don't recall."

    In his interview with sheriff's detectives Nov. 12, George Petitt Jr. said he knew nothing about his wife's encounter with Helriggle during the planning stages for the raid.

    "I was unaware that my wife was even at the bar until after the search warrant was issued and conducted, and the other part about holes in the pants or something, this is my first knowledge I have about that at all."

    Details of the Search Warrant

    The informant said Kevin Leitch was planning yet another burglary.

    Leitch, 21, was well known to Officer Jeff Cotner, Eaton's only detective, and Cotner spent hours looking for him before spotting his car on Sinclair Street in Eaton about 12:30 a.m. Sept. 26.

    Leitch was free on bail and awaiting sentencing on more than a dozen residential burglaries in the county. The informant said Leitch and an accomplice were planning another heist, this time at an old farmhouse that four young men and one girlfriend were renting at 1282 Ohio 503.

    The house was said to contain 10 to 15 pounds of marijuana every weekend, according to the informant.

    Hours before pulling Leitch over, Cotner enlisted the help of Preble County sheriff's Detective George Petitt Jr., who often assisted in city investigations. As Cotner patrolled the streets looking for Leitch, Petitt conducted surveillance on the farmhouse.

    Cotner searched Leitch's car and found two rifles and a handgun, all of them stolen. A passenger in the car, 18-year-old Samantha "Sammie" Webster, was released and never questioned by Preble County officials. Sammie was the younger sister of Tasha Webster, who lived at the farmhouse with her boyfriend, Wesley Bradley.

    After he was arrested and booked into the Preble County Jail, Leitch told Cotner he drove Webster to the farmhouse twice that week to buy small quantities of marijuana. He told the detective the house included up to 12 people, two to three dogs and "pounds and pounds of marijuana," Cotner recalled to sheriff's investigators.

    Cotner said he believed Leitch, even though he was seeking to revoke his bond after learning he had lied to the court about pursuing classes at Sinclair Community College and caring for his infirmed grandfather.

    "Surprisingly, I consider Leitch real reliable to the way he has confessed his life away," Cotner told investigators. "He trusts me like you wouldn't believe."

    Meanwhile, George Petitt was parked at the American Legion on Ohio 503 and watching traffic go in and out of the nearby farmhouse property. Another officer was parked nearby.

    "( Petitt's ) impression right off," Cotner told investigators, was that "'this is a dope house, just by the activity.' "

    Petitt told investigators: "I'd see cars coming and going. I'd pull out to attempt to get a license plate number. From where I was sitting, I wasn't able to really observe the house but simply the flow of traffic in and out of that property."

    Although Petitt was in charge of planning the raid, he told investigators he didn't have first-hand knowledge of anyone selling marijuana from the house.

    Nor did he know who had allegedly bought any drugs there.

    "Was there any marijuana in evidence that was placed in your evidence room or Eaton police evidence room that was purchased in one of these buys?" Detective Laravie asked him.

    "Not to my knowledge," Petitt said.

    Helriggle, 23, awakened by all the commotion and armed with a handgun, peeled down the back stairs.

    George Petitt III then saw 42-year-old ESU Team Leader Kent S. Moore, a Lewisburg police sergeant, fall over on his butt as if he'd been shot.

    "At that time, I was not sure if he was hit or not," Petitt III told investigators. "I didn't know what caused him to go to the ground that fast and then within an instant or a second is when I seen him in a control fashion, lift the shotgun up and fire the shot."

    From a crouching position, Moore fired a single shot to Helriggle's chest, killing him.

    "I saw ( Helriggle ) slumped over," Petitt III said. "He was on the ground."

    Moore, who still wasn't sure if he'd been wounded, stood and joined other officers as they made their way through the house. Medics examined the officer later and found him unharmed.

    The raid was over in less than two minutes.

    Among the first on the scene were Michael and Sharon Helriggle, Clayton Helriggle's parents, who heard the call for Care Flight on their home scanner.

    Preble County Prosecutor's Investigator Dave Lindloff, also the assistant coroner, began video recording the scene minutes after the shooting.

    On the tape, obtained by the Dayton Daily News, a cell phone is heard and a dispatcher announces the time as Lindloff approaches the back door. It is 7:08 p.m.

    Lindloff then announces that he ordered Lewisburg paramedic Kenny Pierce and James Williams, a Lewisburg police officer, to "stay exactly with the body till we can take control of the situation."

    Stepping into the kitchen, Lindloff focuses the camera on a somber-faced Pierce, who is kneeling. Pierce, who was on call outside the house before the raid, was brought into the house to assist shortly after Helriggle was shot.

    Before the shooting, Helriggle's roommate, Ian Albert, had been ordered to the floor at the base of the kitchen stairs by police. After the shooting, Albert pulled his friend down to him and applied pressure to the wound.

    Pierce arrived and cut Helriggle's blood-soaked blue T-shirt from his body and applied a tourniquet -- too late to help him -- to Helriggle's right arm.

    The camera scans the stairs, stopping on the fifth step where the handgun Helriggle carried, rests. A slipper is on the sixth step.

    Lindloff scans the kitchen, showing the doorway leading to the bathroom.

    He ends the tape by ordering officers to "stay at the back door to be sure no one comes in, either."

    Later, as dark descended, Preble County Assistant Dog Warden Lee Richardson was called to lock up the loose dogs so the dead man's body could be removed from the kitchen. When Richardson shone his flashlight on the table, the shadows revealed two dogs, guarding, prone at Helriggle's side.

    Unit Disbanded

    Sheriff Hayes disbanded the Emergency Services Unit shortly after the shooting, citing financial constraints.

    Hayes also relegated Detective Petitt to road patrol after he was observed in November spending work hours at the American Legion and falsifying time cards. Petitt did not return to work and retired on medical disability March 28.

    Terry Petitt told investigators that the couple had reconciled shortly before the shooting, but split up again a month later.

    "I have had little contact with him since Oct. 22," she told investigators.

    Kristi Deaton, a Preble County corrections officer who accompanied Terry Petitt and Camden Mayor Jerry Wood to the 230 Club on Sept. 17, told investigators she drank Pepsi throughout the evening but that Petitt was "highly intoxicated."

    At one point, she said, Petitt brought Helriggle over to where she and Wood were sitting. "She just introduced him as Clayton, and she had made the comment that, 'did you know he could be my son?' " Deaton said.

    Although Deaton noted she may have seen Petitt hug Helriggle, "It wasn't anything emotional," she said. "It was just . . . when friends get together and you give them a hug and stuff like that."

    Deaton said she never questioned Petitt about her behavior that night.

    "I figured she's a big girl," Deaton said. "She knows what she's doing. If she wants to flirt, then she can flirt. If she wants to chat with them she can."

    After the shooting, Hayes called in the Montgomery County special investigations unit, which spent 4 1/2 months interviewing dozens of witnesses. The report was turned over to Greene County prosecutors, who presented the case to a grand jury. The grand jury declined to indict anybody in connection with the raid, which netted a small amount of marijuana.

    Hayes also asked Montgomery County Sheriff Dave Vore to conduct an internal administrative review into the events leading up to the raid and its fatal consequences, including the amount of training for officers and the issuance of search warrants.

    Sgt. John Brands said his special services unit will not make recommendations to Hayes, "but we'll point out issues we came across. It will be up to Preble County to make decisions on anything they want to do."

    The Helriggle family said it plans to file a civil lawsuit and hired James Swaim of Dayton and David Ewing of Louisville, Ky., as its legal counsel.

    Helriggle's mother, Sharon, said her son's death remains fresh, his memory alive.

    "I always think of him," she said. "He's never off my mind, first thing getting up or when I'm up in the middle of the night pacing the house. It doesn't go away. It doesn't get any better."

    She said she doesn't blame the man who shot her son. "I never had any hatred in my heart for him. But someone should have said, 'whoa,' and stopped it. There was no rush."

    Sgt. Moore, the Lewisburg officer who fired the fatal shotgun blast and who was placed on desk duty after the raid, returned to his job as a supervisor in February.

    In his interview with investigators, Moore gave a vivid account of the chaotic seconds when he heard Helriggle on the stairs saying, "What the ( expletive ) is going on down here?" and holding a gun in his right hand "with his finger in the trigger guard."

    "Do you feel that you were in imminent danger of your life when you discharged your service weapon?" Detective Rick Ward asked him.

    "Yes, he was going to kill me," Moore said.

    The raid changed how some officers view their jobs.

    Greg McWhinney, a former corrections officer who had been a full-time sheriff's road deputy only four months when he was deployed to the Helriggle house, told investigators the trip from the farmhouse after the shooting was "dead freaking silence."

    "That is the first one of those I had ever seen and I will be honest: I felt like puking my guts out," McWhinney said.

    For others, the raid became a dim memory, best forgotten.

    "I have kind of put it out of my mind for so long now that some of the details are a bit sketchy," George Petitt III, the detective's son who watched Helriggle die, told investigators two months after the shooting.

    "It's not something I try and dwell on. I'm trying to move on from it because it wasn't pretty."

    He added: "There isn't anything about it I'm proud of in any way."
    ________________________________________________________________
    I would like to add to this, Kent Moore along with his brother Doug Moore were later to be ejected from the county police force for having sexual relations with a 17y/o female. Kent Moore turned sates evidence against his brother due to the fact that "he had no intiment contact with the female" and let his brother take the full brunt of the charge. Doug Moore was a juvenile probation officer along with a CO at the county jail and pulling part time patrol as a Sheriff Deputy. Doug Moore is now a registered sex offender and is on the list in Ohio, Last I heard he was liveing in Eaton. Cotner was discharged from the force for falsifying reports, he was replaced with Pete Ray who has been keeping a file open on this case since it happened.

    Now mind you Clayton did not have a gun in his hand, his gun was locked in a gunsafe in a closet on the lower level of his home along with 2 shotguns and an AR15 he got from his father on his 18th birth day. The video of the gun on the stairs turned out to be BS, Claytons hand gun was found still locked in the safe and the gun on the stairs was a plastic Squirt gun that was found in the living room of the house.
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  12. Buckshot

    Buckshot Active Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Southern AZ
    The media reports have been nothing but BS. When the facts of the case are known to the general public, it will be obvious that the warrant was justified, and the SWAT team acted in good faith. (The actual approach to serving the warrant we can debate to our heart's content.)

    In the mean time, consider a hypothetical situation. Imagine that you (LE or civilian) are threatened with a weapon and you respond with force. Your training demands that you fire until the threat is neutralized. Now suppose what would happen if the threat was incapacitated, but came to rest in a position (with very little CHANGE in position) that visually suggested the threat still existed, and made it very difficult to determine that the threat WAS IN FACT neutralized. You would likely continue to fire beyond what later turned out to have been strictly necessary. But there was no way to have known this at the time. Now combine that with trained professionals using semi-auto (at the very least) firearms and you can see how an awful lot of rounds can end up downrange.

    Hypothetically. :cool:
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  13. 300 H&H

    300 H&H Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,855
    Location:
    Iowa
    Yes the approach for serving the warrant, needs to be debated. It is the only reason we are posting on this story. Anytime the police confuses the role of the military with policing the citizenry we are going to have this type of result. The LEO's escalted this situation with the presants of an armored military vehical. And not enough time to answer their calls. I hope the department gets sued, and looses for this behavior. It will kill every gun owner it is used against. It is a failed and flawed atemp to keep LEO's out of the danger they are paid to accept, by the tax payers they are working for.....ME and many others....They could have gotten this guy at work (he worked in a local mine) or they could have stopped him on his way home form work...but no...they chose to bring in an armored vehical and gave seconds to answer the door? Come on, where is the risk to them here? Where is the POLICE work here? Law enforcement, the second word is not for the community, but more against the community. Police is a term that the public chose for this body......in their resective communities. Swat teams are a bogus attemp at the militarization of the police, and should not be used for this warrant serving task. Pure B.S. on the polices part.

    Lawenforcement is by it's very nature a dangerous bussiness. If this departements to the point that it must take no chances, Then they are not police any more, and as such should not recieve any tax payers funds for their operations.

    Leo's work for us, the taxpayers. I am sick and tired of they pretending to be the military. They must watch to much cop TV at home or something. The military they are not. Old military hardware they are using should be cut for scrap. Taxpayers that paid for it, wish for it NOT to be used against themselves!! And they should wear uniforms that are recognizable as such, not some black nija outfits that the military might use. It is hurting their reputation with the tax payers who pay their wages......

    Best regards, Kirk
  14. Buckshot

    Buckshot Active Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Southern AZ
    Kirk, there's several days' worth of conversation contained in the points you made, but I'll address just one. Yes, in my opinion, an arrest warrant could and should have been served during a traffic stop on this suspect as he traveled home from work. The route traverses some fairly rural areas and even a full-blown felony stop would have been a safer, more controllable situation for both the suspect and the officers. A search warrant could have then been served immediately thereafter on his residence, knowing that he was already in custody. It would have been a much calmer, controlled effort with only his wife at home. The SWAT team would not have even been strictly necessary.

    However, there are a couple of additional facts: One, which I will need to confirm, is whether or not there WAS an arrest warrant or just a search warrant. That changes my points above considerably.

    The other fact that IS known, is that warrants were served at several residences in that area simultaneously, and all of the residences belong to friends and family members of the suspect who was killed. The police have reason to believe this group was involved in home invasions and other nefarious activities. People who commit home invasions are typically well armed, and sometimes employ body armor. I would say that might justify the use of an additional show of force in the service of a warrant
  15. Country101

    Country101 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,171
    Location:
    Dardanelle, AR
    Here's the part I have trouble with:

    You shoot 77 times and dont know that you have hit him? That dont sound like they were trained very well to me. Sounds like a private in the army using the spray and pray technique, eyes closed and briches wet.

    Supported even more by the fact that they thought he fired first.

    I'm not saying that they were wrong for shooting the guy if he was pointing the gun at them, but this suggests they didnt know what the hell was going on. Not very professional from people that are supposed to be PROFESSIONALS and highly trained.
    Again, they may have been right to shoot, but they were bad WRONG as well, if this is how it played out.

    The account, big ugly posted doesnt help these idiots any either. His family is gonna make a mint.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  16. Inthewind1976

    Inthewind1976 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2008
    Messages:
    554
    Location:
    Central Pennsylvania
    I would say NOTHING justifies the "show of force" that was "shown" in this situation. I have to agree with 300H&H; these are police officers, not Delta Force. They were either serving an arrest warrant or a implementing a search warrant; either way, they were NOT trying to dislodge Taliban soldiers from a bunker. The penalty for burglary, home invasion, or drug trafficking, last time I looked is NOT "death," so therefore, I believe that this entire situation was a perfect example of excessive and completely inappropriate show of force. The penalty for speeding is not death, which is why there are very specific "high speed chase" sop's for most police departments; so that the "speeder" is not chased "to death."
  17. Buckshot

    Buckshot Active Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Southern AZ
    The department is reporting 71 shots fired and the OME is reporting evidence of 22 separate wounds inflicted.

    If you shoot a target once or a hundred times, and the target doesn't change position and is still pointing a weapon in your direction, you may rightfully believe that there's no way you COULD have missed, but at the same time you cannot CONFIRM anything, including that the target was not wearing body armor and/or is no longer a threat. That uncertainty, that "mystery" for lack of a better term, is undoubtedly why the team withdrew as opposed to advancing.

    I have no use for incompetence, ESPECIALLY from law enforcement. IF, after all is said and done it turns out they were in the wrong, I will be the first in line to condemn them. But all of this Monday morning quarterbacking by folks who weren't there and are not in possession of the facts is making me sick.

    And based on news reports no less! Since when does the news, ANY news, ever get anything right? Especially in the early stages of an event. I've lived in this community for 38 years and I have also spent most of that time in positions to know a lot of the facts first-hand, or very close to it. If our local news ever gets the facts straight about ANYTHING...it will be the first time.

    I will wait until the facts are in, and THEN let them have it, whether "it" is praise or excoriation. I think everyone should do likewise.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2011
  18. 300 H&H

    300 H&H Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,855
    Location:
    Iowa
    I just hope the TRUTH is told....The famous "Blue wall of silence" and the fact some of the SWAT teams jobs are on the line. I really don't think the truth will be told, if they are the ones that tell it. Their arses' are in a sling right about now I bet. Personally I have seen a on duty officer lie through his teeth to a judge.....and at that moment I realized ther are not good people who wear the uniform.

    Not all LEO's are this way for sure. But as they say a few rotten apples can spoil the whole barrel. This is also why I don't rally understand the code of silence thing. One bad cop and the whole depatment takes the blame..so why not get rid of the "bad" ones? I mean if they are not able to police their own ranks, why should we expect anything less?

    In short I am really concerned about our police who insist on being called "law enforcement"....What ever happened to policing the community? Now officers are just looking for "enforcing" or just "forcing" for short....Now does that sound like the kind of thing you want in your community? Remember, they work for US and our TAXES pay their WAGES, and if they forget this, cut the money and do it fast. We don't need anymore run waway, or rogue Goverment agencies. ATF has done a fine job at this, I hope they are not the example that "law enforcement" type officers are looking to. (as opposed to what a "policeman" would do)

    I guess what we really need is a police force riding herd over our law enforcement agencies.....They arn't doing it themselves now are they?

    If only the military BS had not entered this "fight"....It only escalates the "war" the police are involved in. When cops use military equptment/assult rifles, guess what? the bad guys get them too!!! They will react to what is being used against them, and if they can, will adopt what law enforcement has used succesfully against them. SO this is an arms race, and raise the bar at your own perrill. By racheting up the level of force,you escalate the violence, and more get killed. This aproach is not working very well....(I.E. Mexico) and it shouldn't unless you want a bigger more violent "war" on drugs or what ever. Good old fashioned police work, information gathering ect...and some good old common sence...(like stopping the marine while going home from work) would go ALONG way to recovering the police's reputation. This is important if they want to be welcome in their community, and recieve tax payer funding.

    Best regards, Kirk
  19. phil-this

    phil-this New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    40
    Has anyone asked why the swat team was called in. Was there any previous evidence of danger or threat. I have seen cops serve warrants before and they usually don't involve heavy SWAT firearms. It's not really the actual event that will be called into question but the events leading up to it. Did they have an established character reference that prove a violent history? Were they just basing the necessity for heavy arms on his military history? Did anyone try to serve a warrant before with negative effects? What happened? All these things will come up. I don't think those members of SWAT who fired should be on active duty but suspension w/out pay would seem unfair. The only other thing I want to know is this: Could some law enforcement professional tell me the typical scenario for serving a warrant with SWAT and what kind of surveillance should be set up prior to serving said warrant?
  20. Buckshot

    Buckshot Active Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    Location:
    Southern AZ
    SWAT teams are frequently used these days to assist with serving "high risk" warrants. Now of course we can debate all day long about what constitutes a "high risk," and who makes that call, but generally I would say that a suspect that is known to be armed, is wanted for particularly violent crimes, has a history of violence involving the police, has made statements about "not going back to jail" or "they'll have to kill me," all would come to mind. I'm not saying those applied in this case, but just in general. As I stated previously, this case involved a crew wanted for home invasions. They tend to be well armed, have shown a willingness to be violent, and sometimes have body armor. I'd say that's sufficient to consider the situation "high risk."

    They are now saying that this action was the result of a VERY long investigation. Which both lends credence to their actions AND at the same time makes you wonder about not having planned this whole event better. It may come down to the type of warrant(s). I'm still checking on that.

    And Wooley, I agree with every single point you made EXCEPT the part about criminals being forced to upgrade their weapons to keep up with the cops. I can't even begin to delve into all the ways that line of thought is absurd. I know where you're coming from, and I'm sure we're in agreement in some of those areas, but I said CRIMINALS. Not patriots, not law-abiding citizens, CRIMINALS. Criminals have no right and no justification to arm themselves against the police with ANYTHING! And the truth of the matter, as anyone who has actually spent any time in and around law enforcement can attest, is that the police have ALWAYS been three steps behind the bad guys in the weapons department. For lots of reasons I won't go into here, and with an endless list of examples. It's the good guys that have been playing catch-up. Sorry amigo. :eek:
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr Gov Swat teams go after people off the Grid Jan 5, 2014
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr MA SWAT Uncontrolled ! Jun 28, 2014
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr 107 year old killed by SWAT----words fail me Sep 8, 2013
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr SWAT officer shot with his own Glock by a kid Sep 6, 2013
The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr Disguisting SWATish action in WI Aug 2, 2013

Share This Page