Tac-lights and house guns

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by delta13soultaker, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. Right.

    There's a group of kids down the street that got caught breaking in houses at night and stealing movies and PS2/Xbox games and stuff. These guys are young too; probably don't even have driving permits yet. I felt sorry for their parents but it could have been a lot worse. One of 'em could have very easily become a red puddle on a livingroom carpet. And I bet the hypothetical shooter, whether or not he did the world a favor or not, would be facing a civil suit, which would be another shame.

    A lot of people say upfront that they will kill whoever enters their domain, end of discussion. Which is their right to decide in my opinion. However, I'd say that once in a while, like with a punk kid, this is not clearcut justified. Having already mentally pulled the trigger and having a bullet already with someone's name on it before the fact, maybe that ain't so good always.

    So in that half second between relaxing the trigger finger or sending hot metal through living flesh, it ought to be decided if this guy gets past me will I lose something that can't be replaced or a few movies. People have been shot for less though. Just some thought.

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    "So in that half second between relaxing the trigger finger or sending hot metal through living flesh, it ought to be decided if this guy gets past me will I lose something that can't be replaced or a few movies. People have been shot for less though. Just some thought"

    Now there`s a view that will get you killed for sure---the home owner that is.

    Good Grief.......................


  3. I disagree.

    Every weapon has three safeties: Your brain, the one the manufacturer put on it, and your finger...in that order. Every day a person is killed just because someone mixes that order up. Every day an honest man has to answer for putting his finger before his brain. A half a second of evaluation is not a great sacrafice before committing to an unchangeable course of action.

    Assess the overall danger.
    ID the threat/assess immediate danger.
    Act appropriately.

    "Now there`s a view that will get you killed for sure" Nothing is sure, nothing is certain, and the thing will be what it will be. What we expect or anticipate really means nothing to the actuallity. We have a way of picturing things in our head very clearly, but I hate to say that in reality it will never be the same, you just never know what you are going into until you are there. My point is this: Having made up your mind, having already chosen a decision, before actually being in a situation and assessing the facts available right then, well that could be just as dangerous as anything else. To be more blunt, your gun is just a tool, just kenetic leverage for your intentions; it only does that one thing and has no other reasonable purpose. If you lock your brain, your potential leverage, if you prematurely commit to one course of action then you have surrendered your options and made your mind no different than that gun; just a tool manipulated by something chosing options.

    But do what you want. Once again, just some thought.

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    In my house and you say.......

    "Assess the overall danger.
    ID the threat/assess immediate danger.
    Act appropriately."



    ps-please stay away from cop shows-holllywood and video games......
    trust me, It`al save your life someday-maybe.
  5. So you are saying, that no matter what without any doubt you will kill anyone that is in your house?

    Hollywood makes shows and games about what I do as a profession, so leave that alone.

    PS. I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do in your house or anywhere else. Again, it's just for thought. Thanks.

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Hollywood makes shows and games about what I do as a profession, so leave that alone.

    ...and why should it be left alone???

    So far, I have yet to see anything that would qualify as superior.

  7. You're coming across as condescending on a personal level. Is it intentional? Do you mean it that way? Or am I reading you wrong? I'm not thinskinned. I'm not going to oblige a personal argument here if you have a chip on your shoulder or for any other reason.

    You said I've gotten my view from Hollywood. That is the furthest from the truth. You can talk about my profession; I'll most likely tell you what I hold to be true, if it is on topic and appropriate. But if you are going to refer to me as some foolish audience mentally digesting TV bullcrap, then you are going the wrong way on a one-way street that leads to nowhere, and the sign you passed says "Leave that alone". (Shucks! What the heck did ya think I meant?)

    You haven't seen anything that would qualify as superior. You don't know my story and I don't know yours. What gives you the privilage to rate me as anything? Do you have the qualification to start with? If so, I would be happy to acknowledge your standing, and I'm not being sarcastic. I train and mentor the finest soldiers in the world. I provide guidance, purpose, motivation, and leadership to warriors worthy of representing the greatest country ever established. For my entire adult life I have been a part of, or strived to build and maintain, groups of people who make a team that is pound for pound, man for man, the fastest moving, hardest hitting, most lethal mechanism of death in the history of land warfare. Mostly because we cannot fail to accomplish in the field what the people you vote for fail to do in plush assembly halls. A professional is one who accomplishes his tasks under conditions so severe, in environments so unforgiving, and with such a lack of resources, that the amatuer won't even try; I was taught to never forget this absolute difference. If you are a professional in my field, or even in a similar or parallel field, and are of any status to judge my proficiency, then lay it out so I can pick it up. The smartest man I ever met told me to learn one thing every day, and I'm still not too big enough to ignore that advice. I went to the school of hard knocks a few semesters, where the bell don't ring and you never know the teachers name; so if you are qulified to teach me a superior I don't know, I will learn it.

    As far as I know, you are allowed to have your opinion and I'm allowed to have mine. (And even exist that way without any problems btw.) I know for a fact that no matter what we disagree on, the sun will still come up in the morning. If that is not how it is here, if different opinions are not valued, then I very respectfully ask to be banned.

    PS. If you have a personal issue with me, I invite you to contact me privately.

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Please don`t allow your tutu to slip round your ankles and trip you. Thin skinned but you wish for banishment, isn`t that what someone who gives up says?? My point is simple and it was stated.

    "Assess the overall danger.
    ID the threat/assess immediate danger.
    Act appropriately."

    This will get you killed in your home and allow me to simplify this logic.

    1) Assess the overall danger.

    When you enter someone`s house, as not your own, the danger has been assessed.

    2) ID threat/assess danger.

    When someone is in your house, you are in danger-PERIOD!
    Maybe you will ask for a name----I will not.

    3)Act appropriately.

    ACT?? I think not, this is defined as "react" reaction always loses to action--always, never forget that.

    While you may (in your line) have backup, the home owner is alone and 911 is a long way away.

    "So in that half second between relaxing the trigger finger or sending hot metal through living flesh, it ought to be decided if this guy gets past me will I lose something that can't be replaced or a few movies. People have been shot for less though. Just some thought"

    This will get you killed, I don`t care if he is looking for a pencil/ie, a few movies. The intruder has proven his means by entering. I have little regard for age either, for I am in belief that all know wrong from right.....unless a child---as in ten or under and that can be debated until the sun rises, concerning age.

    I am always amazed, when we become so correct as to give an intruder the upper hand and your evaluation "assess" gives this very thing up.

    It is well known, (please note the word "average") The average person can close seven yards (21 feet)and deliever a fatal strike in under one and one half seconds. If the intruder is armed with a firearm, the window is less in your favor. Should I ask if the intruder is armed? Assess what he is armed with??

    Reality is sometimes brutal, but I "will" walk away.

  9. Woe, hang on to your own panties sweetheart. My tutu is still up; I don't like you that way even if you are kinda cute.

    If I'm going to be drug out into a petty argument hinged on personal issues for having a different belief, then that goes against everything I believe in, so yes I would rather not be associated with such a place, nor could I quietly pretend not to detest anyone who abused a fellow in such a way for excersising his freedom of having his own opinion. Perhaps we have an understanding now, since you have gotten back to your original point. Now a good old debate, even if much of it is regarding the intangible, well that is fine. So grab my tutu comrade and let's dance.

    Assess the overall danger: This will provide you a means to stay alive. There are implied tasks here. Now in your head, you assume you will be in bed and understand instantly what has has occured, your weapon is at hand, you know where everyone is, and your mutual fund is gaining ground in New York, so you will move decisively to halt the evil intruder and let the Devil take him. But in reality there are things that must be asked, thus one must assess. Because things never go wrong until they should not.
    Here are a few in general, but there are too many to list; Mr Murphy likes variety and has a plan for everyone.
    1. Are some family members going to pull into the driveway at any minute?
    2. Where are you in the house? In the shower, on the toilet cursing the bad fish from Landlubber's Agony Diner, under your wife while she calls for Gods she don't believe in, at the fridge wondering if velveeta is really cheese and what to put it on at midnight, or in the den on the internet looking at a new Kimber...you get the picture.
    3. Are you closer to the gun or the kindling ax?
    4. How many intruders to you believe there are?
    5. How did they get in? Did you here a bump on the patio, the alarm is blinking, or did the SOB's drive a Toyota through the front foyer?
    6. Were the morning radio talkshow clowns talking about a ten man jailbreak today?
    7. How did it start? There are no coincidences; unordinary things happening mean more unordinary things. Was someone saying "Police" and banging on the front door when the backdoor started getting kicked? Is there really a police car out there or a purple Honda?
    8. Are they loading stuff from the shed in a Uhaul, or are they in the house proper?
    Overall danger. This must be known. If it is just a guy in the living room, and you family is safe upstairs having a conversation with Jenn the 911 dispatcher, great; too easy. But it is foolish to believe the situation will always be simple. If it is a complicated situation, like several intruders came through multiple points and know what they are doing (say maybe because they are in the market for gun collections and tracked you down and intentionally enter at the moment best for their purpose) then things are going to get very dynamic before they get kenetic. An assessment must be made to recognize the indicators. Then you can place yourself do to the most damage, at the moment you choose, with the least harm to yourself because you have grasped the basic facts of what is or is not happening. Or, if one knows everything already, he can just wait patiently for his foes to show him what is going on. They do get a vote too, no matter how bad you wish them not to.

    ID the threat/assess immediate danger: ID of a target is the foremost and most basic rule of both combat and weapon safety. There is no way around it and there is no excuse for disregard of this. I have lost friends because this rule was ignored. You must know what you are shooting. God help anyone who doesn't.
    It will cost the time it takes some nerve endings to fire around in the front of the brain; what is purchased is certainty and either a stay from terrible grief and/or a life in confinement. It's a lot to buy with just the time it takes data to move from your optic center to your mind.
    1. Have you identified a two-legged predator? Great. Hopefully your carpet is Scotch-guarded and the police questioning is very short outside in one of the cars and you don't have to be sat in the little room at the station.
    2. Is it a stupid unarmed kid who was dared to enter your house and wouldn't punk out in front of his friends or a girl? You are going to the little room at the station, and for crap sake don't try to justify your actions with the same wording you use here or you are going to another tiny room with a metal bed until your local peers hear all about poor Steve and his potential wasted and decide what to do with you; because to them you are the two-legged predator.
    3. Is it a person in panic that forced into your home to flee for their own life? Did you know that this has happened before? Perhaps you may justify your actions. But you will always wonder.

    Assessing immediate danger is a very short thing. It is immediate after all. I know how far a man can cover in a second; we train beyond the limits to cover more than that while exhausted and wearing 50 pounds of crap. But assessing the immediate danger is part of Threat ID.
    1. Is it an unarmed woman, bleeding from busting the door window, her face eyes swelled shut and stab wounds in her lower back, in a panic at your stair case that is overcome with the horrible desire to live through the night? The danger to you from her is low if you domiate the situation after identifying your own self. This will cost you a whole moment of your life to do the right thing. If not, her attacker will be rude not to send you flowers.
    2. Is it a crackhead with your TV? Do what you want. Nobody will care much as long as you can prove he had a way of harming you while holding that TV. Perhaps getting him to drop it a few feet from where he was shot will prevent the family from coming after every penny you ever earned. I so wish that I were completely joking, but you probobably know it ain't funny.
    3. Is it a stoned kid on your couch? This is the type of things that keeps defense attornies in business with honest folk. I would use that right to remain silent because nothing you can say will help you; you need a pro to start supressing evidence and fight for you an indifferent jury. Good luck.
    4. Is it three previously stolen shotgun barrels pointed up your stairwell? Good thing you assessed this immediate danger, because now you can make survivability movement (drop and roll) and not live the next few moments sucking air into blood.

    Act appropriately: If an explanation is needed here, then no weapon will help you. Find somewhere to start learning. There is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. I'm not offering that information without invitation because you, or anyone else, should do as you wish.

    "I am always amazed, when we become so correct as to give an intruder the upper hand and your evaluation "assess" gives this very thing up."

    Yes I agree things have become too correct. It doesn't have anything to do with giving the upperhand. We must look before that. It has to do with what is necessary or not, what can be done or should not, and things that right now I don't have the words for.

    I seen soldiers over and over take that half-moment to assess what they really saw, spending that precious nonrefundable fraction of time to be certain even while men were in the act of killing them, and they did it because it was right and they had seen what pathetic bloody wrong looked like and heard what it sounded like when it's too late to go back and pay the price of right. When they did do the unthinkable, it was forced upon them, and if allowed they would have had it another way. But they are brave; no other word is worthy of them, and even it falls short. They set aside pain, terror, and discomfort in the worst possible circumstance to do what must be done, and to do it right; and that is courage. I'll be damned to believe any man can't, is fundamentally incapable to, show similar prowess in a drastically lower intensity situation. Such a man is a tragedy waiting to happen.

    But again they are brave. It is a shame that everyone is not. There would be no need for my occupation. Try to figure that out if you can. A writer named L'amour once wrote "A coward is surely more dangerous than a brave man, for the coward will likely kill out of fear, where the brave man would not." I have seen, smelled, tasted, heard, and relived in my dreams the utter truth of this horrible fact.

    "Reality is sometimes brutal, but I "will" walk away."

    Perhaps yes. Despite all else I hope so. Be aware that one in a fight may do everything right and still never see nor hear what kills him. So let those who assume they know every ingredient to the formula of their own fate continue in bliss, and hope we always speak for the living and not yet for the dead.

    To walk away. Walk as far as you want, you will never be away. There is no such thing. It is only the beginning. You will do much walking, and much thoughtful pacing, and walk some more through the halls of justice and your actions will be measured where your logic or intentions or what you were certain of have no recognizable bearing. And walk still some more if you were wrong. Please never let me walk through the memory of a broken teenager bleeding in my own floor, or hear him or her beg for help; a young person remembers many people at such a time and he will mention none you want to look in the eye. But you will. When you are measured. All for being trigger-happy when a better man might have the courage for his conviction. Never let my family see me measured short for such a useless thing. Live. Living with that would be the beginning of justice.

    I can train a monkey to just shoot people he don't recognize. It is simple conditioned response; manipulation of the animal, not much different than the human animal either. But a man or woman, I would think would strive beyond this, or risk being a victim of themselves.

    Sometimes I think when we are so certain as that we can say exactly what we will do in a situation that has not yet occured, we should ask ourselves how we know what we think we know. To say "I will do exactly this and it well certainly be exactly this and this will happen" are not the words of a man who has been anywhere near any type of battle; not the logic of a man who has fought for blood. Where did we learn what we know?? From doing? From reading? From hearing from others who read it from others who heard?

    In combat, every individual does not rush to failure. There those who develope the situation when it can be developed. They are the killers; the ones who most likely will walk away. I bash my head in to make these collected cool people who will only act on assumption when there is no choice. With experience, they recognize when to not hesitate, when to never look back, and still when to give up a fraction of a second to let things visibly fall into place before they jump. They are among the best for many reasons, any one of them will methodically ruin ten of the other guys, and because of what I'm trying to tell you is only one of the reasons, but it is one.

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2001
  11. inplanotx

    inplanotx Active Member

    Jan 28, 2002
    Just so we are clear on this, I am enjoying the arguments on both sides. Please do not let pettiness lose this argument.
    I agree with both of you and I for one know exactly what I would do put into a situation where a perp has entered my home. Fortunately, it is only me and the dog, so considering that he only stands 20" tall, anything over that is DEAD!

    What I believe we have here is you Delta, a professional going INTO a situation from the outside and LTS, NAW, just cain't say it, a professional on the inside and knows Texas laws; i.e. "you enter my house, you die". God, I love this state!

    Delta, I believe all you say is good and well tested theory, but based upon your training limits you seeing things as "entering a perps domain". This is all well and good and do not think it demeaning in any way. However, you are trained in a specific manner that involves your TEAM! A homeowner does not have that luxury, he is a team of ONE! The object is to win, perp or perps be dead. That can be the only outcome. What LTS is saying refers to the latter and would apply to my case. I have no assessment to make except to know that someone is in my house and he needs to be dead! When Texas Scootin Jack alerts during the night, that is what will happen.

    What are your opinions on that? I am interested in your opinion and I hope that you are in mine! Thanks.

    By the way, I have a prettier tutu!

    Attached Files:

  12. Shooter45

    Shooter45 *Administrator* Staff Member Supporting Member

    Feb 9, 2001
    Here at TFF
    I'm really enjoying this thread and hope everyone is learning something. As you can see,training is very important to avoid a lifelong mistake. Killing is the easy part but you still have to live with it for the rest of your life and sometimes wonder if you did the right thing. All that in a split second.

    Sometimes,during a heated discussion,tempers flair so please remember to agree to disagree.

    Thanks Gentlemen. Now, carry on. :)
  13. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    LTS, I carry scars and metal around because I assessed the situation before pulling the trigger. I still think, right now, 45 years later, I did it right. And I still think about those times. I wasn't in "combat," with the known expectation of action, and I was not in an "agressor" task, so I had not the mental preparation beforehand to psyche me up. Training tells.

    I think d13st knows his shit, whether it has hit the fan or not. He reminds me of a couple of the SAS fellows who beat up on us for 6 weeks in England.


    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Pops, it`s the job of the Royal Marines and SAS to beat the fluff off US trained military, should they venture to the next level. Glad you survived it-most don`t.

  15. Inplanotx, that is one fine tutu. You need a chaperon to walk around like that. My tutu is getting scratchy and kinda tight so I think I'll put back on my faded loincloth and sweaty headband.

    On my street the last guy that said "Texas" instead of "Republic of Texas" was skull dragged down to the pasture and branded, but he is getting it mostly right now. (He is still on probabation and must kiss your spurs if at any time your beer pitcher is less full than his.) Texas is a good state in that it does give the honest citizen more room to defens himself than many others. However, people do fall through the cracks even here; and since a lot of people don't live in Texas, there are other considerations.

    No matter who you are, regardless of capacity or your intention, homeowner or ranch hand or state trooper, I believe (speaking for myself here) that when you pick up a weapon you inadvertantly owe certain responsibilities to your community and obligations to every citizen. You can be doing your best to be the good guy, but if you disregard those obligations then you are at risk of being reckless and not too different than a drive-by shooter or mugger. I think of it this way, when the anti-gun lobby flaunts statistics they use gun crime numbers because they are the most infamous, BUT when they recite instances, they use documented cases of well intentioned gun owners who made poor choices at the needless expense of innocent life and never mention the difference from those crime numbers; this hits us the hardest where it hurts as gun owners. Every time a well intentioned person does this, they shoot another hole in the bottom of our boat. It is easy to be our own worst enemy and we are.

    Another thing. I know a defense lawyer from Chicago, who is a part time Devil Dog officer when his one weekend a month, two weeks a year, six months when USMC says so comes around. We've had some interesting conversations. A creep that kills a lady for her car gets charged the same fees as a man protecting his family who went too far. Right now there is more than one decent fellow who thought he was in the right at some point that is sitting in a cell the next three years beside a punk who shot a store clerk.

    Having said that, a man will do as he wants, Texas or otherwise, and that's the way it should be.

    Shooter45, you summed up my gist in a few skillful sentences.

    Armedandsafe, SAS is so tuff the can eat cream of mushroom soup cold from the can with no spoon. The first time I ever met a Brit trooper he said to me "What's closer mate, a taxi or a whorehouse?". I was at a NATO patrol course in the middle of Sheepscrew, Bavaria, while they and others from the multinational units were doing some evasion/resistance stuff, them running around in below zero night wearing clothes they made from garbage and no equipment at all evading dog teams and helicopters and all that. We came across one trooper who had dug in frozen ground mostly with his bare hands for concealment or warmth, and I mean he was missing finger nails, and was not about to quit either. I think that kat had sores on his but that if left to fester would eventually become a decent SPETSNAZ team. Man there are a lot worse organizations to get beat up by than the SAS.
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