Talking about swaging dies being a dying art

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by Gunguy, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. Gunguy

    Gunguy Guest

    Yes swaging seems to be a dying art or the reloading faction. It was going pretty good back in the 60 to early 80s and then kind of petered out.

    But I'm all for it because you can come up with some interesting concepts in bullet weights and shapes.

    Of course it doesn't hurt to have a mini-lathe to help you fabricate nose punches and other parts for swaging dies...see attached image of C&H swaging dies. These are extremely hard steel dies made by an old firm that knows how to make them for nearly a half a century.

    Note the nose punches below each swaging die, these have different ogive shapes in them to facilitate the shape received when you ram the nose punch on your press up into the swaging die.

    The 101 die set is two dies, one is for swaging bullet nose shape and the other can attach a copper jacket and give you an ogive round nose shape to your bullet with a small mep flat at the top.

    I am presently doing .44 caliber and .45 caliber. The .45 caliber is for an older S&W that has extremely large cylinder throats and I am able to make lead or jacketed bullet diameters read from .451
    to .454 or even .457 diameter.

    It also helps to have a Lyman or RCBS bullet lubebrisizer press so you can apply bullet lube to your swaged bullets base lube rings.

    I recomend C&H tool & Die'4-D out of Mt. Vernon Ohio as the best price and quality of swaging materials.

    You can contact their own line catalog if interested at chtool@amnet.net I hope that addy works for you.

    Check it out its an interesting way to make bullets.

    Gunguy

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2003
  2. Cow Caregiver

    Cow Caregiver New Member

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    Not a dying art, just commercialized.

    Look at all the specialized bullets available to the shooter from the small swaging shops. Barnes with the X bullet, Swift, and a host of others are making very good special-purpose bullets. The current American shooter does not have shop space for this kind of tool, so he buys this stuff, which keeps Barnes and his crew, and the boys at Swift from going on the welfare rolls.

    That said, I still do my own bullets, some of which are odd indeed, and for cartridges that give little call for the commercial boys to step in and build. The 7.62x25 is a case in point (pun intended) for which the consumption is small enough to not really merit a controlled expansion bullet. I make one, .309" and moly coted, swaged from copper and skived for a three leaf petal, then annealed with a deep hollow point.

    I make a similar slug for the .357. But your average joe does not have access to the tools and the knowledge to do these things. Even casting is an art that is more commercial than a home task these days.
  3. Gunguy

    Gunguy Guest

    Indeed you are most correct in your analysis on the reason the average Joe doesn't get involved with such stuff as we are talking about.

    They don't have the time or inclination because it is too labor intensive and requires some skill and enginuity why should they when they can buy Joe blows wonder kind bullets for a mere hundred dollars for 1K of those projectiles.

    Well for a little over a hundred dollars one can buy a nice set of C&H swaging dies and whole new world of bullet making can insue forth with much satisfaction in making bullets manufacturers only wish thay could make.

    Right now I am having a ball making hollow based lead bullets in my swaging dies with a nose punch I made on my mini lathe. This nose punch has an excellent cone shape about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch deep depending on how I adjust my swaging die determines the depth of hollow base.

    But that is not all, while the base is being hollow based the top of the bullet is being shaped in the swaging die with an also adjusted amount of ogive I need for said bullet.

    This is a two in one operation and I may experiment with hollow point to the nose of the bullet while hollow basing the bottom.

    This is why it is important to generate some interest in swaging, there are many opportunities in it for reloaders...it also offers endless satisfaction to do these self made things.

    Gunguy
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2003
  4. Cow Caregiver

    Cow Caregiver New Member

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    The shotglass bullet

    What your are talking about with the double ended hollow point is the old Webley H bullet. It is a manstopper, plus. Accuracy is good too, and when you figure the expansion into the equation, you have the ideal self defense bullet.

    I have seen these in .38 Special, and they were awesome on autopsy. We will not go into where....
  5. Gunguy

    Gunguy Guest

    CC, I made a couple of these awhile back in .44 caliber on my mini lathe before I made the hollow base nose punch.

    They were Hornady 240 grain lead buddits and after reaming them out a tad on either end the weight was around 190 grains.

    Now with the HB nose punch can swap both ends of lead bullet without reaming or losing any bullet weight thus making the hollow base on both ends like the ole Webley killer diller.

    Can you imagine these in .44 or .45 caliber if the ole .38 was such a terror.

    I keep a couple of speed loaders handy loaded with these for home protection in .38 special and .44 special.

    Gunguy
  6. Cow Caregiver

    Cow Caregiver New Member

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    The Webley bullet

    The .45 Colt would be awe-inspiring with these loaded in it. Even with black powder, it would be awe-inspiring.
  7. JBMauser

    JBMauser New Member

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    Location:
    Roanoke, VA
    swaging

    I would like to swag some heavy lead bullets for paper patching and loading into my 11.7x51R danish (45/70 basically) and I don't want to (can't now) spend $100 for a set of dies. I have a lee mold for the .45 cal R.E.A.L. bullet wihich I thought I could use to form my basic "Pill". I have been hanging out lurking on the swag bullet forum at www.greybeardoutdoors.com but those guys are all store bought tool types and no I do not have a mini lathe yet. That is also on the wish list till money returns. I do have some swaging die bodies as were show in the pic posted by the thread creator. mouth dia. are .507, .512, .463 (which is what I think i can work with and size down from) and .500. All are threaded on top but have no marks or info on them at all. I do not know if I can swap, trade or make useful these parts to make my PP Pill. Thanks for any advice. I also thought about bying a lee mold and drilling it out?? to make a cast lead pill to patch. Any comments on this lame plan? JBMauser
  8. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    Hi JBM and a big Texas howdy to you. Welcome to TFF. Our resident swaging experts are Gunguy and Cow Caregiver. I'm sure they will be along shortly to help you out. Watch out though, Gunguy has a mini lathe and can perform smooth operations with it. Again, welcome to TFF!
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2003
  9. JBMauser

    JBMauser New Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Roanoke, VA
    Swaging

    Thanks for the Howdy inplanotx. Gunguy the CHtool address you posted no longer accepts mail. I would like to find their on-line catalogue.

    JBMauser
  10. Gunguy

    Gunguy Guest

    Hellos JBMauser:

    Sorry about that bum addy, try this one and let me know if it works for you... www.ch4d.com hopefully this will connect you to getting the on line catalog of C&H.

    Dave Davison is the big cahoona over there.

    C&H bullet swaging starts on p.15 and 16 if I remember correctly.

    Do you own a Lyman or RCBS lubricating sizing die machine? The reason I ask is you may be able to cheaply get your Lee mould bullets lubed and sized to whatever diameter you want.

    The Lee 2003 catalog has on page 26 a die that can work on your reloadin press called: Lube & Sizing Kit. Note the sizes available are .451, .452, .454, and .457 diameter sizing your .45 caliber bullets.

    Of course when you can afford it get the C&H No. 101 bullet swaging dies. And if you don't plan on core seating copper cup jackets onto the lead wire cut cores...special order both No. 101 dies to have the same diameter, this will make it a whole lot easier to swage a great assortment of bullets.

    You see, when you normally order a No. 101 swaging die set they come in two different diameters for the copper cup jacket seating...but if you just want to do a lot of different shapes and weight bullet swaging...order them in the same size diameter whatever that may be.

    C&H can make any size you want on special order.

    Anything else just ask...

    Gunguy
  11. JBMauser

    JBMauser New Member

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    Location:
    Roanoke, VA
    Swaging

    Gunguy, the URL you just posted works fine. Thank you. I have a Saeco lube-sizer. I use lee push through sizing dies for my .308 and .323 cast bullets. I have what I think are swaging die bodies that I picked up in a lot of stuff on ebay and I am trying to see If I can get some use out of them. here is the URL for the pics of my find. http://www.hunt101.com/showgallery.php?ppuser=5613&cat=500

    Here is the thread where I listed the dia.s

    http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=12529

    As you can see they were only a bit helpful. I think they are C-H swedge dies missing their pieces. The funny looking die that I use for sizint to .312 is in fact a 30/06 sizing die and the neck stops below the top of the die. I will use it to size with and save the cost of the lee die. I use ther ram from my .308 lee sizer. works fine. JB
  12. Gunguy

    Gunguy Guest

    Your sizing dies look remarkedly like ordinary sizing die on the one on the right, however, the one on the bottom is a bit of a mysterey...what is the brass or bronze object inserted in the bottom of the die?

    Need more information, or get my hands on them for a better look.

    The guy on the other forum was incorrect about sizing dies not having internal threads...C&H dies do...I've got the No. 101 set and both are threaded at the tops.

    If any of these dies are of a correct diameter to your reloading specs...it would not be difficult to make the ejector cores or shafts for them.

    Gunguy

    Attached Files:

  13. JBMauser

    JBMauser New Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Roanoke, VA
    Swaging

    I did not think they were sizing dies because only one has a smooth interior wall and it is by no means mirror smooth as I would expect it to be to resize a straight walled case. The die with the brass/bronze insert is the smallest dia. of the lot and the brass rod is but an inch long. I thought it to be some kind of ram but it is soft and with it's very fine machine threads I have no clue what it is. It probably has nothing to do with that die except that it slides into it's mouth with very little play. I assumed that these may be swaging die bodies because the lot came with a bunch of half jackets and a 1/2 dozen steel rods each with either a bowled end or in some cases a resessed cylinder cut deep into the rod as if they were to push out a round pointed bullet or a flat nosed bullet. I am reading the corbin booklet he has posted on his board. The more I learn the more it seems these will offer me little use. Still I am on a learning track and that suits me fine. To answer your last question, these dies are all much larger than any cal. that I load for. I have it in my mind to come up with a paper patched projectile of .455 or so finished with patch and of about 300-350 grains for my 11.5X51R Danish rolling block. I might offer these in trade or if I knew what they were put them back up on ebay for someone who could use them and put the $$$ into a mold or a proper swege die. Thanks for your comments and interest. JB
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