The Bible regarding life at conception

Discussion in 'Religious Discussions' started by 45Auto, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. sub-moa

    sub-moa Member

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    Doesn't seem all that complicated to me.
    Let us, for the sake of simplicity, disregard the medical community’s ability to extend life both in the very young and the very old and just look at God given life. Since there seems to be no great debate on when a human is dead; no signs of non-assisted bodily functions such as respirations, heartbeat, brain activity, organ function, cellular division etc. We usually agree that that person dead. Most humans will then refer to this human a corpse. Until this last physiological state even if this person can no longer walk, talk, see, or communicate in any way with other humans and cannot exist and is totally dependant on other humans he/she still is a human life. The change in physiological state does not change what that human being was in the former state. In the case of the majority of full term survivorship, he was formerly an elderly human. Pryor to that he was a middle aged human, and before that he would have been an adolescent human and then a human child, then a human baby, then a human embryo, then human fetus and lastly a human zygote. Each of these stages in physiology does not make the person a non human. Once again:
    An embryo is an individual, no matter how small.
    When the embryo receives cells from the mother and the father,
    it is neither the mother nor the father
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  2. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    You are right; the Bible does not specifically name a time between the reproductive act and birth at which this becomes a human being.
    But it certainly does give sufficient evidence - such as the Fetal John recognizing the fetal Jesus - that this is a human life with human emotions at the very least SOME months before birth.
    Since we KNOW it is murder at some point prior to birth, and we have no concrete evidence that there is a point at which it is NOT murder, our direction is pretty clear.
  3. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    It seems to me that regardless of whether the Bible says specifically when human life begins, it should be self evident to a thinking person, when that is. Think about it, we have two living things, a womans egg and a mans sperm cell. All that's necessary for human life is for the two to meet. If there isn't human life at that point, there never will be.

    EX NIHILO, NIHIL FIT
  4. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    Even in the fetal state the Son of God and John the Baptist are examples of extra special individuals. This is one of several Biblical passage providing testimony of the extraordinary and miraculous nature of Jesus. While it's reasonable to make an extrapolation from this passage, in fact we are making a comparision of Devine beings with ordinary people. An interpretation of the Bible even by an inteligent man is not the same as the word of God.

    And so it is that we imperfect men and women must proceed with humility and caution regarding a question which the Bible has not answerd.
  5. tcox4freedom

    tcox4freedom Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    ^^^THIS^^^

    Perhaps God realized that HIS people would have the "wisdom" to understand what is "implied" in HIS Word.

    Personally, I think with those whom are called by HIS name, there is little need for a "direct" answer. (Faith is enough)

    IMHO;
    It is only the ones that lack "FAITH" and have NOT yet accepted or met the "Spirit of TRUTH" who have difficulty in this particular understanding.

    The Bible is quite literally full of implications that we were known of God well before we were born. One either believes this or they do not.

    I can not see how anyone can believe they were known by God before they were born and NOT believe that your "physical" life began at the time of your conception.

    To those that have yet to grasp this TRUTH, I suggest a time of prayer & devotion to the FATHER. Ask him to fill you with the "Spirit of TRUTH"; so you will know & understand your LIFE has ALWAYS been in the hands of GOD!

    -
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  6. sub-moa

    sub-moa Member

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    Since we KNOW it is murder at some point prior to birth, and we have no concrete evidence that there is a point at which it is NOT murder, our direction is pretty clear.[ampaterry]

    My Granddad used to tell me "Ifyou need to ask yourself if something is wrong, it probably is.":)
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  7. tcox4freedom

    tcox4freedom Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Your granddad sounds like he was a wise man.
  8. sub-moa

    sub-moa Member

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    Very; and sadly they seem to be few and far between these days.:(
  9. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    In general, abortion is wrong. We know this as a gut feeling.

    The Bible is not clear as to when a human life begins. We can argue about that.

    The Bible does not say that abortion is a sin. Though we know it's wrong.

    So, when should the Govt. have the power to step in and make it illegal?

    As I understand it, the Supreme Ct. looked at the three trimesters and said that a woman has her choice in the first trimester. The Govt. can say "no" to abortions in the third. I'm not sure about the 2nd trimester. In any case, it seems that giving people the freedom of choice in the first and maybe the second trimester is a reasonable compromise given that the Bible does not say that life begins at conception.
  10. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    45 Auto, I hate to be abrupt, but what part of "Thou shalt not kill" (murder), don't you understand. You keep dancing around this same theme of biblical ambiguity. THERE IS NO AMBIGUITY. Abortion is muder.

    The government should have already stepped in because abortion denies the constitutional rights to a human being. Sorry, there is no "reasonable" compromise. The constitution isn't a procedure for compromise.

    Now we can keep going round and round on this issue, but every time you post something like this, you are going to get the same replies.
  11. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    RunningOnMT: I'm here to learn from the point of view of other people, not hear my views repeated back to me. So, if you don't agree with something I wrote, I'm fine with that. Nothing personal.
  12. RunningOnMT

    RunningOnMT New Member

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    I saw nothing in my comments that appeared to be repeating your views back to you, only a rebuttal to the opinions you expressed.

    Let me try one last time with a very simple. yet I believe, profound argument.

    Abortion kills the fetus...correct?

    Then there had to be a life there to kill.

    If one keeps going back earlier and earlier in a pregnancy, there has to be life there otherwise it wouldn't develope and grow, be born, grow up, age, and die. These are all stages of the life cycle. To destroy it at any one of these stages is murder.

    So do a regression back and ask yourself "When was there no life?" Before conception.
  13. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    ROMT;

    I think you're having trouble actually seeing the position of the pro-choice movement. They're not saying that killing a person early enough doesn't count as murder. They're saying that the fetus isn't a person, so killing it can't be murder.
    The argument isn't whether killing a baby is murder. The argument is whether a fetus is a human.

    I think their position is horrifically incorrect, but let's not go pretending that they're trying to pass off something they believe to be murder as OK.

    Devil's Advocate :devilish: (NOTE: This is not necessarily representative of my personal beliefs)

    Yes, they believe that an abortion does kill a fetus. And they believe that a fetus may--eventually--turn into a human being. But they don't believe that killing the potential for a person is the same thing as killing a person.
    Why can't we go back before conception? A fetus is a potential person, but so are an egg and sperm that come together during a sexual act. Isn't a condom, which stops that potential person from becoming a person, very similar to an abortion, at least in this aspect? What is the significant difference?

    We intentionally kill all kinds of things all the time. Animals, bacteria, cancers, etc. Why shouldn't a fetus be on the list? Having a child is far more inconvenient than having, say, a leech or an infection of some kind.
  14. Bobcat58

    Bobcat58 New Member

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    I'm new here and I may be butting in where I'm not wanted, BUT after reading that last remark I just had to help the one that asked if destroying the egg or the sperm that's in the condom, wouldn't be the same thing as an abortion. Let me put it very simple so anyone could understand. You have your sugar, flavoring, flour, and eggs in your kitchen. By themselves they are just what they are nothing different. But, when you put them together put them in the oven it's a cake. It doesn't matter if it's still semi liquid it's still a cake, it may not look like a cake, and it may not feel like a cake, but it's STILL a cake. Mom never told me to walk easy in the kitchen so I wouldn't make the sugar fall, or the flour fall, once it was all mixed together it was a cake and she always told me that if I did, I'd make her cake fall. Sperm by it's self is just a cell and an egg if not used destroys it's self, but once the sperm mixes with the egg it's already started the process so it's a human, a person, a living being. If the abortion clinics weren't afraid these girls and women would change their mind if they had to see what the their child looked like, letting them see all of it's little parts like it's little fingers, toes, eyes and mouth, even if it don't look exactly like you and me yet, they would decide it was a little person too and not have the abortion causing the clinic to lose a lot of their money. They even know it's a living person too but they're hooked on that almighty dollar.
  15. carver

    carver Moderator

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    Welcome to the forum, and you've made a good first post!
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