The case for the December 25th birthday of Jesus

Discussion in 'Religious Discussions' started by Dan Newberry, Dec 27, 2011.

  1. Bobitis

    Bobitis Guest

    Did people 2000 years ago understand leap year?

    From what I understand, times of the ancient religions were based on phases of the moon. That's why the Jewish (and muslim) holidays vary from year to year.

    I ain't no scholor, so I could be wrong. :rolleyes:
  2. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    It's a good observation... which is why one cannot make assumptions about the timing of priestly courses (1 Chronicles 24) with regard to the timing of John the Baptists birth, then of Christs (six months after).

    No... quite honestly the most compelling information as to when Jesus was born still must be the date given by Hippolytus, John Chrysostom, and Cyril of Jerusalem... they all said December 25th.

    We give the dates of Civil War battles today, and don't question the historical accuracy of those dates. We're only a few generations removed from the actual event. Imagine if, in 1000 or 1500 years (if the Lord tarries which I doubt it'll be that long), we have some revisionists who decide that we were wrong about the dates of key Civil War battles... and of Lincoln's assassination... or of Kennedy's... and they base it on the weather (?) :D
  3. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Outstanding point, Bob -
    I will make ONE correction to it, though.
    While both the Hebrew calendar and the Islamic calendar are keyed to the moon phases, the Hebrew calendar takes that into account and corrects itself to the solar year in such a way that their holidays fall in the same GENERAL time of year according to the sun and therefore to our calendar. The Islamic calendar, on the other hand, makes no such correction - it ignores the sun completely.
    Due to these differences, the Hebrew Hannukiah will always be within one moon phase of our Christmas. Their holidays never drift more than Easter drifts. The Islamic holidays like their month of Ramadan will drift throughout the year, falling in all four seasons sooner or later.

    I will differ with Dan just a bit, though, because we have had calendar changes well within recorded history that have caused some confusion regarding the proper date to commemorate certain events. The pilgrim landing at Plymouth Rock is an excellent case in point. It is celebrated on TWO DIFFERENT dates due to a miscalculation when the calendar correction to the Gregorian was done in 1582. The confusion continues to today, when Forefathers Day (commemoration of the pilgrims landing at Plymouth Rock) is celebrated on December 21 or December 22nd depending on who is doing the celebrating.
  4. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    Dan I debated posting this as it's pretty in your face and although this is exactly how I feel about the whole holiday thing I'll go ahead and post the video.I'm not in favor of christmas,easter or halloween or any of these man made traditions

    you 've got to give this guy credit for standing on the truth and I'm right there with him.Sorry that all the feel good stuff is contrary to the word that professing christians claim to stand on .Yes I'm sure he meant born, instead of died on this day.reffering to christmas day.

    The Christmas Answer It Has To Do With Truth!
    Come folks, let's stop playing games, if we are going to be people of truth, then let's stand on it, let's live it, let's do it. If your going to live a lie, then do it, but do not call the lie, the truth. because I will expose you!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PsgY6S9JfI&feature=uploademail
  5. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    He says that since Christmas is NOT MENTIONED in the Bible, Christians are being disobedient to the scripture to celebrate it.
    Wow!

    Thanksgiving is not mentioned in the Bible - WHAM - do away with it!
    The National Day of Prayer is not mentioned in the Bible - GONE!
    Independance Day is not mentioned in the Bible - stop recognizing the birth of our nation!
    Hey, Television is not mentioned in the Bible - BURN the evil TV sets.
    Semi-automatic pistols are not mentioned in the Bible so they should be destroyed, yet he has his prominently displayed for the camera -
    Computers are not mentioned in the Bible -
    Destroy them!
    99% of everything we do is not mentioned in the Bible, yet the only thing that seems to bother him is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, who is the focal point of the entire New Testament -
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  6. reynolds357

    reynolds357 Former Guest

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    The Church has never contended Jesus was born on December 25th. We have no clue when He was born. Most early Church fathers speculated between late Jan and early April. Constantine turned Mithras (a pagan holiday celebrated by most Romans) into Christmas when he declared Christianity the official religion of Rome. Constantine is how DEC 25th became Christmas.
  7. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    I look at Christmas sort of like I look at wedding anniversaries.

    Forgetting the date of your anniversary will probably be forgiven by your spouse.

    Forgetting you are married will probably not.
  8. reynolds357

    reynolds357 Former Guest

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    I will debate you to the bitter end on the subject of was Jesus born, but I could not care less about debating what day he was born on. We do not even know what year, much less what day he was born. There is a 14 year window that His birth could have occurred in.
  9. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    according to the sources I've found, at least three early church fathers did mention December 25th as Christ's birthday.

    Here are some links... http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Christmas/christmas.html

    http://www.bibleserralta.com/JesusbornDecember.html

    If there are some online sources showing early church fathers mentioned other dates for Christ's birth, please post them, as I don't want to advance false notions here. If you have that information in a book, just the book's title, publisher, edition and page number will be useful.

    I think the whole pagan connection has been pretty soundly and reasonably offset with the debunking of Alexander Hislop's "Two Babylons", a book that contains multiple errors and outright fabrications. Here is a link to help clear that matter up... http://newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm

    We've got to be careful criticizing what our brothers and sisters do for Christ in love and sincerity. Romans 14... Romans 14... ;)

    Dan
  10. reynolds357

    reynolds357 Former Guest

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    As I said earlier, it is not really worth debating. No great number of people literally took Dec. 25th as the literal day Christ was born until recently. The Church Fathers you mentioned were 100 and 400 years removed. I think if you will study Roman history closely, you will see that all our Western religious holidays myteriously had a pagan holiday celebrated on that day prior to Constantine.
  11. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    And even Hanukkah is a December 25th event as well, at it's roots, anyway...

    The festival of lights that Jesus attended in John 10 was, practically all scholars agree, Hanukkah.

    It was December 25th, 165 BC when the Macabees cleansed the temple and the jar of oil lasted 8 days.

    The pagans and other godless peoples of course understood that there was something unique about the winter solstice... the longest night of the year, the most dark time on the yearly calendar.... so they had their celebrations long about that time. Saturnalia was celebrated from December 17th to the 24th.

    But it's interesting that Hanukkah comes in at that same time, a festival of lights is called thereafter... lights during the darkest time of the year.

    What better time for the True Light of the World to come to us? :)

    One of the links I provided above points out that it has actually been in recent times that the December 25th date has come into question... that for centuries no one supposed any other date.

    The pages are worth at least a look. One of them actually is written by a guy who does not agree with the December 25th date, but he sets forth quite a good bit of evidence to support it anyway. :)

    So whether we believe it was December 25th or some other date, it doesn't matter. The Bible does not mention the date, and we of course should not part company over the matter. Both sides have their points worth considering...

    Dan

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