The Hebrew Roots cult...

Discussion in 'Religious Discussions' started by Dan Newberry, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    web page link for discussion...

    http://www.cyshift.com/hebrew_roots.html

    We are seeing factions split from church congregations in our area, and meetings have been set up where strict Hebraism is taught. These congregants generally come away with a feeling of superiority over their brothers and sisters who remain "uninitiated."

    I recently experienced a situation in my own home, where a decent lady--my sister in Christ I'm sure--refused to enter my home because there was a "pagan" Christmas tree in my living room. She actually said she would not come in my house!

    She follows diligently a man named Norm Franz ( www.ascensionministries.net ) ... I listened to one of Franz' teachings, and while I was in agreement with him on 90+ percent of what he said, he did go on to teach that the Jewish dietary laws are still in place (dismissing Mark 7:19, apparently)... and that Galatians refers not to God's laws, but to the laws the Jews made up for themselves... I hope I'm not misrepresenting Franz here, I'm going by what I heard him say in one of his teachings, and also what our friend who is into the Hebraism has told us.

    Some of these Hebraic roots advocates are actually quite good expositors of the Old Testament, and I think they can be well worth listening to. Bill Cloud is a fascinating teacher. If you can find his teaching called "The Pharoah Who Knew Not Joseph" I would recommend it. Go to www.billcloud.com and you can probably find it there. Cloud reveals a paradigm of America, as compared to Egypt in Joseph's day... and the track we're on. We're following it to a "T", so to speak...

    Still... you gotta eat the meat and spit out the bones with these guys. Maybe read and understand Galatians a couple times over to wash the mud out of your eyes... :eek: :p

    If it's not one problem or faction in the church, it's another... I think we're seeing the falling away Paul spoke of in II Thessalonians 2 in progress right now.

    Dan
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  2. Caneman

    Caneman Active Member

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    "the church without walls"... all the divisions will be gone one day, imo
  3. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    Dan, I can speak to part of what your referring to here as I've been exposed to it and accused of it as well.
    I'm not familiar with Norm Franz although have heard of some pretty strange things even for some of the messy antics.I don't celebrate christmas and have my opinions of the tree ,however refusing to come into your house or by failing to explain to you why I perhaps didn't want to in a way that would not alienate the two of us might be a short coming on her part.I don't eat pork either , however I need to tell you why I don't and have understanding if you don't understand.I use the names Yahua and Yahushua and if I were to pound you over the head for not understanding why I do that however strange it might sound is shame on me.Even the HRM and the messy's get into heated debates over the name and is beyond stupid in my opinion.I've tried to stay away from the groups as they usually have some agendas and really just traded "church"traditions for "jewish" traditions from all I can tell.

    Bill Cloud as been up to our group when we were in KY and he is a great teacher as are many others , I've listened to many and they to get that 95% just right and then throw in a ringer I guess just to keep us humble.The SDA have a great many things right and were some good teachers and on and on I have some really good teachings on the NT from a hebraic view point and we that look at the Torah as instructions tend to ignore the many teachings from the NT.
    I've been in both camps and know the drills and beliefs of the New Covenant church and then what was revealed from this side .I'm not going to say you have to do this or else ,however I do post teachings etc that present facts that some may be searching for.There are great many facts in modern theology that when looked at hard ,just don't seem to make sense and therefore more than just a few are searching for truths.
    well I guess that revealed enough facts to get me sent over to the leper colony
    Thanks for the question.

    I've included a couple of links for Bill ,many may have seen Bill on Gods Learning Chanel and on Manna Fest
    Bill Cloud just gave this presentation about Mingled Seed... on July 3rd in Rushton LA
    A very good teaching.
    http://www.viddler.com/explore/Helichrysum/videos/2/ pt 1

    -- http://www.viddler.com/explore/Helichrysum/videos/3/ pt 2

    http://www.viddler.com/explore/Helichrysum/videos/4/ pt 3

    http://vimeo.com/22671862
  4. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    I got familiar with Bill Cloud through Perry Stone (Manna-fest), and have appreciated his teachings ever since first hearing him.

    thanks for the links... I'll check 'em out. :)

    Dan
  5. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Bill cloud , "We are all people of the Book " who's book ? wheren't no muslims in the torah or Bible , but it did tell us to beware false prophets ( of which i am sure islam is one) and the only book that calls us all people of the book is the medina Koran , he teaching from that ? or is there another book that address's jews Christian s and islam , if so whats its name and why is he teaching from it ??

    has not the "messiah" already come ? been flayed and tempted , scoured and nailed to the cross? and died so we no longer do ?

    mixing the two was spoken about in the great basilic conference ( 110 AD )

    you cant do both , you gotta choose

    be ye hot or be ye cold but if you are luke warm i will spew you out of my mouth ..

    or words to that effect ..

    this messiah group or the many groups now .. why do they say so little of Jesus ?

    why do they say his Divinity is not what we think ? that he has limits on his powers of intercession

    to me thats an attack on my faith as bad as the posters people say i vandalised .. ( Jesus is a prophet of allah )

    and the teachings i have seen from Mr Cloud a mix of Cabbalististic BS and satanism sorry but when you involk the "star of the morning" to me your calling up old nik hisself

    if i've interpreted it all wrong let me know but the video's i've seen to date scare the heck outta me ..
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  6. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Hmmm.

    I gotta agree -
    "The people of the book" is a phrase from the Koran, and causes the hair on my neck to raise up - -
  7. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

    quote from link at wiki below...

    People of the Book (Arabic: أهل الكتاب‎ ‎ ′Ahl al-Kitāb) is a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a revealed scripture[1] called, in Arabic, Al-Kitab (Arabic: الكتاب ‎ "the Book" or "the Scripture"). The three types of adherents to faiths that the Qur'an mentions as people of the book are the Jews, Sabians and Christians.

    bold type emphasis mine... the Islamists call us the people of the book.

    As far as Cloud being a false teacher, I don't think he is. But that doesn't mean he isn't wrong about certain things. Note that even Peter had to be corrected by Paul in Galatians 2, for shunning the Gentiles.

    Cloud believes a lot of things that I don't, such as Torah keeping (feasts, Mosaic law)... but I still have learned from him. We even learn a lot from Orthadox Jewish Rabbis who don't accept Jesus, as they speak of the Old Testament...

    Like I said, eat the meat and spit out the bones...

    (Which is not the same as eating around the tire track on the road kill, I should add). :D

    Dan
  8. Diamondback

    Diamondback Active Member

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    Whenever someone accuses me of practicing a pagan ritual such as Christmas, I simply ask them why they are condemning me when they practice the oldest known pagan ritual in the world. When they aask me what ritual is that I answer "Prayer, you sanctimonious moron!"
    I never hear anything more about my beliefs or my actions. It works every time.
  9. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Diamondback, you make an excellent point!

    I have heard a LOT of people object to observing Easter because it was named after Ishtar, a pagan goddess.

    Yet, these same people will observe Sunday services without regard to it being the Day of the Sun, a Pagan name. Or they observe Saturday as their Sabbath without regard to it being named after the god Saturn.

    You make the point quite well; prayer is NOT reserved for Christians, nor even for Jews and Christians. Prayer is indeed observed by every pagan belief on the planet. And this IN NO WAY is a justification for us to ignore this practice!!
  10. Dan Newberry

    Dan Newberry New Member

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    Easter... also think about the book of Esther. Esther was not her name, it was Hadassah... Esther simply means "a star." That was her Persian name.

    And God made her a star alright. :) God did not then, nor does He now have an issue with the name Esther. And what about Apollos? That means "destroyer!"... So what really is in a name?

    If God did not like the name Easter (variant, which means "a star"), He would not have called one of His books "Esther", nor would He have sat in Heaven wringing His Mighty Hands when the King James Bible was written, and pascha (passover) was called "easter" in Acts chapter 12. To believe otherwise presents a low view of God's sovereignty--because you are essentially saying that God would rather not have had His word presented in a paganized way, but found Himself unable to alter it. This is HIS WORD, remember... (He is not going to allow it to be set forth in a bible through which untold billions of people come to Christ--the KJV--if He has a problem with pascha being called Easter!)...

    Again, to believe otherwise is to accuse God of being complacent or unable or bumbling! And that is blasphemy, pure and simple. Repentance is in order.

    What we seem to know about paganism is not so much rooted in actual historical accounts, but the musings of one Alexendar Hislop, from the mid 1800's... his works have been largely debunked. Look up Ralph Woodrow... he pretty much put a stake in the heart of Hislop's "Two Babylons" by proving shoddy or non-existent research.

    Then modern day pagans, seeing the faulty and contrived works of Hislop, lay claim to many Christian traditions. They like to mock Christians for "stealing" their Christmas tree, but no credible history says that pagans ever brought trees inside to worship them. In fact, those who worship trees would never think of cutting one down (which kills it), and dragging it inside to decorate it.

    Then of course if we were really worshiping the Christmas tree, would we toss it in the garbage after the season? Of course not...

    My people perish for the lack of knowledge, the Lord said. (Hosea 4:6)...

    Dan
  11. user

    user Active Member

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    The law is a tool, placed by the management for your convenience and protection. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." It WAS made for man, though, and a man is silly if he doesn't make use of the tools he's been given. But no one will be keeping track of deviations from protocol. Santa Claus doesn't exist - there is no list of who's naughty and nice, and only the NSA "sees you when you're sleeping" and "knows when you're awake." The prophetic message demonstrated in the crucifixion is that God's love for us is as limitless as he is, and that we are to accept that love with the grace and humility with which it is offered - it is not about sin or atonement (because there is no list).
  12. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    funny what some people call "cult" I call obedient.
    If we use scripture as our manual and we let scripture interpret scripture ,then everything we do in the name of being a believer should be in the book correct?

    The bible was written by who...., the messiah ,our High Priest will be a .... ,the prophets were .....the language was what...?
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
  13. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    Zoroastrianism is a much older religion, with similar beliefs, such as one god. Zoroastrianism is considered to have had considerable influence upon the Hebrew people and the evolution of their religion prior to the time they claimed the land of Isreal.

    So, if folks want to ignore the Bible and go back in time to the source of our Judao-christian beliefs, they must go back to ancient Persia for the original rules.
  14. Python

    Python Former Guest

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    The crucifixion of Christ is not about sin or atonement?
  15. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    OK -

    Skyking, I did not know this posting concerned your denomination. I took it to be addressing the Christian Identity movement, which progresses from "We are God's chosen people" to "We are the TRUE Jews, and the present day Israelites are not" and continues unto anti-semitism and Neo Nazi beliefs. That is, indeed, a cult.

    Dan, no more use of the term "cult" in regard to this group.
  16. Skyking

    Skyking New Member

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    no worries terry I edited my post, I don't claim any denomination to be under .

    There are some splinters from all groups and I have problems with many of the "messys" and HRM like everyone else.
  17. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    OK, I will bite on this one.
    SkyKings questions, my answers in bold red.

    The bible was written by who.. Men who were guided by God .., the messiah ,our High Priest will be a .. sight for sore eyes for me - and a terror to many .. ,the prophets were ... inspired by God directly with dreams and visions ..the language was what? The languages of the original texts of the Bible were Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek
  18. vavasour

    vavasour New Member

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    Does the pagan origin of a thing or concept logically imply the thing or concept is pagan? The word "influence" originally referred to the invisible rays by which the constellations affected our lives. I've never heard of anyone claiming that use of the word "influence" makes one a closet astrologer. Reductio ad absurdam.
  19. ampaterry

    ampaterry *TFF Admin Staff Chaplain* Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Vavasour, the nature of things can certainly change over time.

    Witness the day to worship the Sun, named Sunday.

    Sunday now, for Christians, is the Lord's day, and a time for worship.

    What did you have specifically in mind?
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