"The International" DBL BBL Shotgun

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by Larry Ash, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Larry Ash

    Larry Ash New Member

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    I recently posted about a Henry Elwell dbl bbl shotgun and many prople have been very generous with their time trying to help me identify the gun and its value.

    I have another old gun called "The International" and it is also a double barrel shotgun and has a patent date of 1883 .

    Does this gun have any value or is it just a "Wall Hanger"?

    This gun was brought over to the US by my hungarian grandfateher who was a patternmaker by trade and he remade an elaborate checked forestoch and rear wood plate for it since the original was destroyed years ago.

    Thanks for any help!
    Larry

    Attached Files:

  2. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

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    Does it have a butt plate with image of a waterfowl and intitials S.J.D. & Co.?

    If so, made by Simonis, Janssen & Dumoulin of Liege, Belgium for Meacham Arms Co. of St. Louis, and probably obtained by your grandfather after immigration.

    Later: Rereading your post, the "rear wood plate" you mention probably replaced the hard rubber original buttplate I cited. But if you remove the barrels, they will probably have several Belgian proofmarks on underside, such as those on the "Union Machine Co" example shown here (scroll down past the revolver and rifle):

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies s/a simonis janssen and dumoulin gb.htm
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  3. mkbrmb

    mkbrmb New Member

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    Thanks for the great info and link. I had gotten one of these a year ago, and could not find any info on maker or year of manufacture. Based on the proof markings, I have now been able to identify it. Unfortunately, mine is missing the fore end iron, the piece that attaches to the wood and locks the barrells in place. I don't expect that I will ever find a "spare" so I need to find a truly talented gunsmith that can manufacture one from another piece. I am in the Fort Worth, Texas, area, and would prefer not to ship the gun very far off. Any suggestions?
  4. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    The wood is not a big issue, a new wood forearm is relatively easy to make, the big problem is the metal attachments. The cost of reverse engineering the forearm metal is going to be way higher than the value of the shotgun. Just so you are aware of the problems.
  5. mkbrmb

    mkbrmb New Member

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    Yeah, that is what I figured. Still, it is sad that but for the missing metal, the gun is hopelessly in pieces. The family I got it from had it taken apart and stuffed in a drawer, for storage and to keep it away from smaller children. Unfortunately, at some point the metal became separated from the foregrip, and now is lost. I'm sure someone saw a wierd looking piece of metal, didn't know what it was and threw it away.

    I have looked and found a couple of pieces of spare parts foreend irons, but none fit, and would require machinning (sp?).

    I will keep trying to fined someone who has the talent, and can be reasonable on price.
  6. Vino829

    Vino829 New Member

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    We too have an International 2 bbl shotgun. Same lines but older. Ours appears to be older. The plastic butt plate has the initials SJD&CO. It's serial No. is 12156. The right side plate has PATd June 20, 1883. The left side plate has The International. The rib has Laminated Steel. The forearm is missing an inlay at the front & has the serial # on it, also the triggerguard & under the barrels. Also at the back & bottom of the bbls it has NOT FOR BALL & PATd MARCH 27 April 14 & June 20 1883. It has a small oval inlay on the bottom of the stock. The proof marks sre different from the pictures in the forum and it looks like it has 10.2 with them. Can you give me more information? We thought the gun was brought over from Europe, but everything on it seem to be in english. Thanks for your help. It is a family heirloom.
  7. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

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    It was just marked in English for export to USA. S J & D = Simonis-Janssen & Dumoulin of Belgium:

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies s/a simonis janssen and dumoulin gb.htm

    Scroll down and you'll see a shotgun marked "Union Machine Co" another of their trademarks.
  8. george45

    george45 New Member

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  9. george45

    george45 New Member

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    I think I have you looking for, Posted a note for you. Took it to Cabela a couple of wks ago. Can send pictures of the hardware. George45
  10. mkbrmb

    mkbrmb New Member

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    Well, my Kharma must have some really good charm to it right now. My niece just got engaged to an engineering and fabricating specialist who owns a CNC machine at his business. I gave him the gun, along with several other forends I had purchased as spare parts, and he is going to fabricate the missing piece. Should just cost me a really nice dinner for them, which I would gladly do anyway. COOL.:cool::cool::cool::D
  11. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    :)You really should go out and buy a couple of lotto tickets.
  12. Buffalochip

    Buffalochip Active Member

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    Boy, aren't you glad she isn't engaged to an undertaker....
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