"The International" DBL BBL Shotgun

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by Larry Ash, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Larry Ash

    Larry Ash New Member

    8
    Oct 6, 2012
    I recently posted about a Henry Elwell dbl bbl shotgun and many prople have been very generous with their time trying to help me identify the gun and its value.

    I have another old gun called "The International" and it is also a double barrel shotgun and has a patent date of 1883 .

    Does this gun have any value or is it just a "Wall Hanger"?

    This gun was brought over to the US by my hungarian grandfateher who was a patternmaker by trade and he remade an elaborate checked forestoch and rear wood plate for it since the original was destroyed years ago.

    Thanks for any help!
    Larry
     

    Attached Files:

  2. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    Does it have a butt plate with image of a waterfowl and intitials S.J.D. & Co.?

    If so, made by Simonis, Janssen & Dumoulin of Liege, Belgium for Meacham Arms Co. of St. Louis, and probably obtained by your grandfather after immigration.

    Later: Rereading your post, the "rear wood plate" you mention probably replaced the hard rubber original buttplate I cited. But if you remove the barrels, they will probably have several Belgian proofmarks on underside, such as those on the "Union Machine Co" example shown here (scroll down past the revolver and rifle):

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies s/a simonis janssen and dumoulin gb.htm
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012

  3. mkbrmb

    mkbrmb Member

    113
    Feb 23, 2013
    Central Texas
    Thanks for the great info and link. I had gotten one of these a year ago, and could not find any info on maker or year of manufacture. Based on the proof markings, I have now been able to identify it. Unfortunately, mine is missing the fore end iron, the piece that attaches to the wood and locks the barrells in place. I don't expect that I will ever find a "spare" so I need to find a truly talented gunsmith that can manufacture one from another piece. I am in the Fort Worth, Texas, area, and would prefer not to ship the gun very far off. Any suggestions?
     
  4. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

    Feb 22, 2004
    Goodyear, Arizona
    The wood is not a big issue, a new wood forearm is relatively easy to make, the big problem is the metal attachments. The cost of reverse engineering the forearm metal is going to be way higher than the value of the shotgun. Just so you are aware of the problems.
     
  5. mkbrmb

    mkbrmb Member

    113
    Feb 23, 2013
    Central Texas
    Yeah, that is what I figured. Still, it is sad that but for the missing metal, the gun is hopelessly in pieces. The family I got it from had it taken apart and stuffed in a drawer, for storage and to keep it away from smaller children. Unfortunately, at some point the metal became separated from the foregrip, and now is lost. I'm sure someone saw a wierd looking piece of metal, didn't know what it was and threw it away.

    I have looked and found a couple of pieces of spare parts foreend irons, but none fit, and would require machinning (sp?).

    I will keep trying to fined someone who has the talent, and can be reasonable on price.
     
  6. Vino829

    Vino829 New Member

    11
    Mar 16, 2013
    We too have an International 2 bbl shotgun. Same lines but older. Ours appears to be older. The plastic butt plate has the initials SJD&CO. It's serial No. is 12156. The right side plate has PATd June 20, 1883. The left side plate has The International. The rib has Laminated Steel. The forearm is missing an inlay at the front & has the serial # on it, also the triggerguard & under the barrels. Also at the back & bottom of the bbls it has NOT FOR BALL & PATd MARCH 27 April 14 & June 20 1883. It has a small oval inlay on the bottom of the stock. The proof marks sre different from the pictures in the forum and it looks like it has 10.2 with them. Can you give me more information? We thought the gun was brought over from Europe, but everything on it seem to be in english. Thanks for your help. It is a family heirloom.
     
  7. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    It was just marked in English for export to USA. S J & D = Simonis-Janssen & Dumoulin of Belgium:

    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies s/a simonis janssen and dumoulin gb.htm

    Scroll down and you'll see a shotgun marked "Union Machine Co" another of their trademarks.
     
  8. george45

    george45 New Member

    1
    Jun 16, 2013
     
  9. mkbrmb

    mkbrmb Member

    113
    Feb 23, 2013
    Central Texas
    Well, my Kharma must have some really good charm to it right now. My niece just got engaged to an engineering and fabricating specialist who owns a CNC machine at his business. I gave him the gun, along with several other forends I had purchased as spare parts, and he is going to fabricate the missing piece. Should just cost me a really nice dinner for them, which I would gladly do anyway. COOL.:cool::cool::cool::D
     
  10. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

    Feb 22, 2004
    Goodyear, Arizona
    :)You really should go out and buy a couple of lotto tickets.
     
  11. Buffalochip

    Buffalochip Well-Known Member

    Oct 22, 2008
    Boy, aren't you glad she isn't engaged to an undertaker....
     
    shootbrownelk and TheGunClinger like this.
  12. ortner455

    ortner455 New Member

    1
    Nov 13, 2015
    I have a double barrel 'the international' made by SJ&D company serial #10052 barrel proof markings of crown ELG and 10.2 and EL in cursive also has JC also an E with a star above it. serial# is on the barrel, trigger guard, forearm (both in the metal and in the wood) and on the frame. on one side of the frame it says "the international" and the other side it says patd June 20 1883. on frame under the barrels it says patd March 27 April 14 June 20 1883 also the butt plate has a water bird maybe a duck or something in it. and one other thing the rear stock has a silver oval on the bottom (maybe a counter weight?) one person told me that this was the 52nd gun made like this because the first gun had a serial # of 10001 I don't know if this is true, but I was wondering if anyone knew what this thing is worth. any help would be appreciated
     
  13. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

    Apr 1, 2008
    There are no production records of the "International" and other shotguns made in Belgium for export by Simonis-Janssen & Dumoulin, but it was advertised by E. C. Meacham of St Louis in Dec 1884.

    Even in new condition, the old Belgian imports are considered wall hangers, valued at plus or minus $100.

    scan0002.jpg
     
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