the right tool for the job!!!

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by gunlearner, Jan 26, 2009.

  1. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    ok my friends
    first i would like to congratulate you on your new president!!
    second
    here is the deal to all of the arm forces personnel that have experience in this field and all those that can give me some advice

    my company soon will start a sea farm and am in charge of the security
    if was up to me i would use a 50 cal mounted in top of the guard house but sadly in ecuador i cant use nothing more than 9mm what puts me in a situation.
    if i have to cover an area around the ponds (the farms is located 1.5 miles from coast) and i can only have a guard house located in the center of the ponds and these are at a distance of 15 meter in any direction and the immediate outside perimeter is at a distance of 75
    the following question is for you to discuss
    could i use pump action shotguns???
    should i get a sub machine gun with a capacity of 30 rounds??
    what should be the effective range of this submachine gun if an hk mp5k gives me only around 25 meters
    my idea is to use the COLT MOD.635 9MM WITH AN EFECTIVE RANGE OF 200MTS
    if i can get them authorized by the goverment of ecuador
    if you were in my shoes
    what type of weapon would you choose limiting your self to pistols and submachine guns 9mm and shotguns??
    take care

    gl
  2. 21bravo

    21bravo New Member

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    gl...
    im thinking, if i understand correctly, your "farthest shot" in a worse case scenario would be 75 meters, right? so...maybe a pump 12 gauge with a rifled slug or...the 635. but you know how the military is....in my company we have a saying "Hurry up and wait" we also call it "quick waiting":D let us know how it goes
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  3. Terry_P

    Terry_P New Member

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    I would go with the Colt if you can. Is it possible to hire guard dogs with handlers to patrol the area? If not then I would have patrols with shotguns and backup in the guardhouse armed with the Colts.
  4. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    here is the way it is
    the farm is located in the ocean and the only place you can walk is in the guard house
    the rest i have asked for a jetboat and a 4 man team
    what am i going against?
    southamerican pirates, drug dealers and maybe coyoteros (those fu... that transport ilegal imigrants to your country), groups of people that want to take most of the fish that they can and sabotage.
    those are my threats.
    the pirates are the ones that am concern the most since they don´t play around simply kill you and take what they want
    i can´t relly on the navy in ecuador since they don´t have the capability.
    so basically i want to pray and spray at a distance of 100 meters before they come to close in a sea that is moving all the time and acuracy is hard
    i do have however a radar system and a rection team
    is just that i choose these weapons so you can tell me if am ok with my desition
    colt mod .635 (if i can find a couple in ecuador)
    9mm polimer pistols (glocks i whish) maybe taurus 24/7 why polimer due to the fact that they will be in the sea and the rust factor is big
    if i can´t get the colt i need then shot guns with something special in the shell
    the maximum i can get is 5 guns in total
    so wish me luck and i will let you know how it goes
    and if some one has the skill of an instructor in conditions like i describe above and is interested in teachin my people down here give me a price
    and i will let you know if got approved
    vr
    Gl
  5. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    G,

    If you have reliable 635's yeah, good carbine. MP5K no...too short.

    If you can't get 635's or full size MP5, maybe Smith & Wesson Model 15, or MAC10's. You can at least spray them down and keep them back until you gather your reaction team to flank them.

    Shotguns...00 buckshot is not very good past 50-60 meters...at 75 meters you may need several shots to hit a man...000 buckshot is even worse....you are better off with #1 buckshot...it has enough pellets to at least hit a man once at 50 meters most of the time. This really leaves slugs...and you don't much want to be trying to hit men with slugs that are shooting back with AK47's and FAL's right?

    Special shotgun loads...most "special" loads don't do anything better than buckshot.

    If the pistols cut into your carbine/SMG numbers....don't get any. A pistol is no good against AK47's man.


    If you can get posts/pickets and razor wire/concertina wire....stack them triple/3 high (2 on bottom and 1 on top like a pyramid) and anchor with barbed wire on top....make obstacles to funnel the pirates in to kill-zones. Deny him room to maneuver, make him bunch up close together to attack so you can focus mass fire on him.

    Sandbag your guardhouses. Double sandbag will stop Ak47 fire.

    Floodlights and flares. See if you can invest in some PVS7b for your guys...maybe red dot Aimpoint to mount gooseneck style on your 635's...with PVS-14's or PVS7b's they make a good night sight.
  6. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    i really thankyou for the input though the situation is complicated. ecuadorian laws does not allow to use nvgs or any type o laser sights unless you are military
    so basically ties my hands and of my people
    pirates use all types of hi power rifles.
    am getting anyway a nvg and a hpr to keep them away just in case my guys have to respond with deadly force
    and the best thing is that i have a policy that shoot and kill before you get killed
    as soon as i get the proyect going i will post pictures our security so you can see
    vr
    gl
  7. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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  8. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    question for delta13
    what is the effective range of a colt 9mm in water
    if in land the effective range is 200mts
    does the effective range gets shorter with the effect of open sea.
    please help me with that info
    gl
  9. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Yes and no.

    On calm water, of course gravity isn't changing, etc.

    Inside the breakwater/surf, you're in for the extra bumps and the extra wind gusts.

    Past the surf you've got the rolling waves and steady wind.

    Overall, you're going to have a bigger wobble zone from boat motion and wind is unforgiving to flat-base 9mm bullets.

    With iron sights, reflected light from the water plays hell on windage (gets intense focusing on the post). If you've the sun low in your face too, it's twice as bad as on land.

    A rifle certainly stands even more superior than your 635's out on the sea. Your main obstacles are 1. wind 2. waves 3. changing conditions.

    How less effective your carbines are is going to depend a lot on how adaptive, competent, and skilled your personnel are.

    p.s. Something to help you in the powercurve with repeated fire with those Colt 635's, making that wobble zone have less affect. Follow through on those Colt triggers: Notice when you fire, if you hold the trigger back, then slowly release you'll hear a loud "thunk" in the receiver.

    A lot of amateurs completely release the trigger after each shot. Practice just releasing until you hear the "thunk", then get your sight picture back, and squeeze again. It takes several pounds off the Colt trigger pull. Your accuracy will improve.

    Train your boys to follow through each shot by not fully releasing those triggers...it will take them practice to make a habit, but it's worth it...they'll squeeze more potential from those 635's becoming more accurate with faster shots.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  10. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    ok talking with the gun control in ecuador they told me that i cannot use smg 9mm because the only ones to get permision to use those type of weapons are armored trucks
    do to the bad news i have to rearange the type of weapons
    so here is the question to all you gun masters
    if i can only use pistols and shotguns and judging from the link that i will add
    what do you recomend
    take in consideration that guards will only work at night and i have a reaction force of 4 elements
    distance between cages 15 meters
    diameter of each cage 25 mts
    from cage to firs outside perimeter 20 meters
    second safe zone perimeter from cage 50 mts
    total of cages starting from 4 to a total of 120 cages
    http://www.istockphoto.com/file_clo...epts/903149-ocean-salmon-farm-1.php?id=903149
    the image above is some how like the project i have to protect from southamerican pirates!!!
    take care
    gl
  11. USMC-03

    USMC-03 New Member

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    Gunlearner, what are your restrictions on rifles? Are you allowed to have centerfire caliber rifles as long as they aren't fully-automatic? Semi-automatic?
  12. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    USMC, they cannot have centerfire rifles.

    gunlearner, after seeing that photo, man I misjudged exactly what you're doing.

    When you say 4 elements, how many men are in those elements? Or you mean just 4 men?

    I'd recommend you test your shotguns at the distances you anticipate using them with different buskshot/slug loads and then decide on the best ammo for the task. (A good rule of thumb is 50% of the pellets in a 25cm circle indicates effective at that range.)

    I don't exactly have my brain around your plan, whether it be a static or mobile defense.

    If you're planning to maneuver on an emerging attack, it's wise to attempt fixing (pinning) them in place with one element, then flanking with another. (This requires well coordinated signals and communication to shift and lift fire before the flanking element assaults over the enemy. Motorola talk-abouts at a minimum...a back-up visual signal too. And absolutely as simple as possible.)

    For a static defense, you can multiply your effect by using interlocking sectors of fire 30m in front of your men and building their cover so that they are protected from the front and forced to fire at interlocking angles. Interlocking sectors of fire forces an attack to halt to accurately return fire, causing them to lose momentum. With interlocking sectors of fire the enemy is hit in the oblique...if he shoots to his left, he is hit on the right...if he shoots to his right, he is hit on the left...if he keeps assaulting he is hit from left and right. (The temptation to place defensive positions with weapons facing straight out is strong...but doing so gives up one of the best advantages in the defense: Controlling where the attackers are killed. With interlocking sectors of fire the enemy can't even engage anything until he is in the kill zone...and covered by no less than 2 weapons.) I'm not sure this is feasible on your sea farm, but I figured I'd mention this just in case you may benefit from it.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2009
  13. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

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    thanks for the tips
    the answer to your questions are
    the budget that my boss is giving me are a minimum of 4 men and i have divided them into
    1 control center monitoring the radar that covers from 5 meters from the CSC up to 3 km from the farm, also has a radio connected directly with my control center on the factory and a portable radio in my house for back up just in case. also the command center is equiped with a CCTV which is connected to wireless internet from where i will be able to remotely see the csc and the outside.
    this other am not quite sure how will it work but teh initial idea was to purchase a jet boat (speedster 155hp 4 seats) i choose this boat because is very good in turns and if it can be use for tricks it can be used as a reaction vehicle all i have to equip the boat is good reflectors to be used when nessesary
    the other idea is to build two catwalks since the csc and warehouse will be located in the center of the four cages giving me a better way to cover all four corners of the outside perimeter
    also i was thinking placing a 2 million candle refrector on top of the csc or in a pole
    the 3 people left will be my reaction force
    so my basic idea is to monitor everything that moves around the farm and if something is detected prepare to intercep if they cross our outside perimeter
    this radar will give me an advantage of praparing just in case something is moving towards the farm and the best thing is that the radar will be programed to pick up everithing at sea level
    so my friend am very exited and at the same time am afraid to put my people in a greater risk with out giving them the right tools to do thier job
    a few weeks ago somo fishing boat found three small fishing outboard that were left there by pirates that took their engines and left them there. i also heard stories where the pirates just tied fisherman and then threw them to sea, so this people dont f... around and trust me i wont either.
    thanks for all the help you have giving me
    gl
  14. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Yeah man, you don't have room to play with or you'll end up dead or visiting someone's mother to explain what went wrong.

    You might benefit from everyone having commercial 26mm flare guns with white parachute flares. If you unexpectedly light things up it could confuse the bad guys, make them hurry into mistakes, or break off because of the extremely high visibility of all the attention. And...you can shoot out lights but you can't shoot out flares.
  15. noslolo

    noslolo New Member

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    Great advise delta, you know your stuff!
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