The Separation of Church and State Myth

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by jack404, May 14, 2012.

  1. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    While you are not likely to find accounts of the Aitken Bible in your history books, the very real existence of it provides a little insight into how the founders of the United States viewed the so-called separation of church and state.

    In 1782, the Continental Congress of the United States authorized the printing of 10,000 copies of the first English edition of the Bible printed in America. In authorizing Robert Aitken to print his version of the Holy Bible they also granted him the authority to print the following recommendation from Congress.

    [​IMG]

    Whereupon,
    RESOLVED,
    THAT the United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this Recommendation in the manner he shall think proper [emphasis added].

    To understand the origins of the Aitken Bible we have to go back to 1777. With supplies of Bibles in the US being cut off by the British, the Continental Congress began searching for ways to find alternative sources. Two motions were presented before the congress to import Bibles from other countries. Neither motion succeeded.

    Sensing an opportunity, a printer by the name of Robert Aitken who was already printing copies of the Journals of Congress produced his own version of the Holy Scripture. He presented his version to congress in 1781 along with his petition asking them to inspect and authorize his work.

    On September 12, 1782, Congress granted Aitken their authorization to print his version of the Bible. At the same time Congress provided their recommendation of the Aitken Bible to those living in the United States.

    Unfortunately for Aitken, his Bible was a commercial failure. He later petitioned congress to purchase the remaining supply and distribute them to soldiers. The new petition was denied.

    It comes to many as a great surprise when they discover that the U.S. Capitol doubled as a church each Sunday from the end of 1800 until after the Civil War. It’s a further shock to the system when they discover that it was Thomas Jefferson himself that gave approval to use the building as a church. He even attended church services there regularly during his administration.

    On December 4, then Vice-President and President of the Senate Thomas Jefferson joined with Speaker of the House Theodore Sedgwick to give approval for the capitol building to be used as a church. At the time, Thomas Jefferson was also the President-Elect.

    Thomas Jefferson road to church at the capitol on horse back. In fact, he arrived in the same manner to worship at the capitol church just two days after he wrote the now infamous letter that contained the “wall of separation of church and state” language that many anti-religious groups try and hold up as proof the founding fathers wanted a government free from any kind of religiosity.

    Washington insider and social critic Margaret Bayard Smith wrote of Jefferson’s attendance at the Capitol Church, "Jefferson during his whole administration was a most regular attendant. The seat he chose the first day sabbath [sic], and the adjoining one, which his private secretary occupied, were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him."

    Other presidents also worshipped at the U.S. Capitol, including Madison, John Quincy Adams, and Abraham Lincoln. President James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, during his administration would arrive at the Capitol to worship each Sunday via a horse drawn carriage.

    Throughout the following decades the US Capitol was used as a church for many denominations. The first Catholic service was held on January 8, 1826. The first woman to preach in the church was Dorothy Ripley who did so on January 12, 1806. On February 12, 1865 Henry Highland Garnet became the first black person to preach a sermon at the Capitol.

    Other federal buildings were also used at the time to hold services. The Treasury Building once housed a four hour communion service in 1804 and also served as the regular church for several denominations. In his diary, President John Quincy Adams wrote about a church service preached before an overflow audience in the Supreme Court Chamber. The First Congressional Church met in the Hall of Representatives from 1865 to 1868 where more than 2000 worshipers recognized the Sabbath each week, making it the largest Protestant audience in the United States at the time.


    hope this set's some to thinking ..

    cheers


    [​IMG]
  2. Shoobee

    Shoobee Former Guest

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    I feel it would be awesome to have an Australian flag next to the Stars and Stripes up above, to show the unity of values and purpose of the two Nations globally and here on this website.

    And especially since we have an Auzzie helmsman at the wheel.

    You even have some room to squeeze the Union Jack and the Irish Harp up there too, as well as New Zealand, if you like, to represent the entire English-speaking world.

    :D
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  3. permafrost

    permafrost Active Member

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    It never was part of our Constitution. I don't know where they get that crap! it just says "Congress shall make no laws establishing a state religion". They were just trying to avoid the established "Church of England" situation, where everyone had to belong. We are free to worship as we please. There is nothing in the Constitution about seperation of church and state. That's something Thomas Jefferson alluded to and was picked up as gospel by liberals.
  4. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Cheers but its a US site , run by and for US folks , but who gratiously accept all shooters from all places... and you'll all be up against the UN and its ways soon enough ( if you aint noticed the UN influence already) trying to make you bow to this state or that state , and frankly your prez does enough bowing for a imperial japanese court ...

    Keep your flag flying as there'll be enough along trying to rip it down , focus on that , we aussies will be fine and be flying our own along the way
  5. Shoobee

    Shoobee Former Guest

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    Jack, I did not know about the Aitken Bible. Thank you; I love history.

    I did know that there had been many English translations and printings ever since the first, which was handwritten (as were most books in those days) by John Wycliffe at Oxford University in England, in the 1380s AD. He produced several dozen copies.

    Widespread printing and publication of the English Bible did not take place until the 1611 King James "version" of the Bible, with compared many previous translations of the Bible in English, as well as the German translation by Martin Luther as well as the Catholic English Bible called the Rheims edition.

    For awhile the King James Version was the state of the art.

    The first English Bibles printed in America were indeed by Robert Aiken in 1782 and these were the King James Version.

    Up until the 1880s every Protestant as well as Catholic Bible had 80 "books," including the KJV. However Noah Webster in 1833 first produced his own English translation of the Bible and omitted the 14 "Apocryphal books" for the first time in history. King James himself had enjoyed those Apocrypha books and forbade them from being removed from the Bible, although apparently in his own day there was some movement to have them removed for unknown reasons.

    The timeline for the origin and printings of the Bible are as follows:

    - circa 1400 BC -- Moses sets quill and ink to lambskin parchment to begin the first 5 scrolls or "books"

    - 200 BC -- completion of the Greek-language Septuagint translation of the 52 "book" Jewish scriptures from Hebrew (which includes the 14 "Apocrypha" books)

    - circa 120 AD -- completion of the various Greek manuscripts of the 27 scrolls or "books" of the "New Testament"

    - 382 AD -- translation into Latin of all 80 scrolls or "books" of the Old and New Testaments into one Latin "codex" or book as we understand a book to be today

    - 1384 -- Wycliffe's English translation

    - 1522 -- Luther's German New Testament translation

    - 1611 -- KJV Bible with all 80 "books" first printed and distributed

    - 1782 -- Robert Aiken's English Bibles printed in America

    - 1833 -- Noah Webster's revision of the KJV with removal of the 14 "Apocrypha" books

    - 1885 -- the 14 "Apocrypha books" began to be removed from printings of the KJV from Bibles printed in England as well.

    - 1901 -- the American Standard Version of the KJV which also removed the 14 "Apocrypha books".

    Since then there have been numerous new translations of the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament from the original Hebrew and Greek into English.

    Robert Aitken was definitely a small part of this overall history for the English language Bible.

    If you want to see what is in the missing 14 "Apocrypha" books, you need to go to a Catholic bookstore and ask for a copy of the Douay-Rheims English Bible. They have plenty. The translation is similar to but slightly different from the KJV and other English translations of modern times, and of course the Old Testament section has 14 more "books" in it.

    You can also find online comparative translations as well as the original Hebrew and Greek here:

    http://bible.cc/

    This online resource does not contain the 14 Apocrypha books however.
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  6. LyleLovett666

    LyleLovett666 Former Guest

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    Funny how liberals don't put so much value into Jefferson's thoughts on arming the citizenry.
  7. permafrost

    permafrost Active Member

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    You do get worked up occassionally , Jack , but you have a lot of tolerance also. Thanks
  8. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    i have a reprint of a 690 Ad latin Bible with 80 books and notes

    but went back and studied aramaic as well and looked up a lot of the original copys

    New testiment has been my main focus but knowing the old helps see things in the new as well

    when last in Lebanon i visited St Davids where the aramaic was translated to greek way back , and the book there !!!

    i spent $800 and my daughter saying to me how i asked her to go light as we had to make $ last ..

    theres a book thats was stolen from the vatican and which they want back badly , all the folks who where cardinals and such what they paid , what they ran , wives info etc etc etc

    theres the one they really want shut down .. ;)

    religion..

    two words

    reliana and legion

    reliana meaning to control or lead

    legion which means "many"


    Faith however has a totally different meaning ..

    a wonderful one for those who get it ..
  9. Shoobee

    Shoobee Former Guest

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    Faith is a Latin variation of the Greek word which means "believing."

    I went back and learned Hebrew before visiting Israel, and Greek before visiting Athens.

    I like learning the living language of an overseas place before I go there.

    Some day I will need to take up the study of Australian as well, and go there.

    I already know that prawns are prawns in Australia, and that only Americans say "shrimp" there.
  10. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Jefferson is one of my heroes if i can say that , a person whos deeds i admire , and who recorded his thoughts on why he did what he did and did so in plain language of the day so all may see his thoughts , a rarity, and from one who set the bar so high for others to follow , amazing ...

    Frosty , i'm a flawed man , only through Grace am i anywhere near whole ..

    i'm getting old and crankier on some subjects but also a softy when it comes to family and especially the grand kids

    multiple personality disorder on the way ??

    reason does work best with those with brains , blunt reason at times ,

    but i do get angry at blind stupidity , the refusal to see facts for what they are and the blindness these so called smart people have about socialism , that they all think this time it'll work , when its never worked and always worked at destroying other nations so they too fail , as a drunk tries to get others to drink , to get others as low as themselves .. they think they are smarter than everyone else just like those who thought the same each and every time people have supported socialism in the past ..

    folks should not be that blind ..

    but again i'm a flawed man , far from perfect , but i learned my history well and what i see people spruking, is fantasy . pure and simple .. the gent this morning ( earlier) case point ..

    he aint a dummy , but his take on history

    DA CHURCHYS DONE IT ...

    because they dont enjoy his lifestyle choice ...

    so they rewrite history and hide the true evil

    rewriting history
  11. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    When Elizabeth was crowned Queen she held the Scepter in one hand and something called the Orb in her left hand.

    orb.jpg

    http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/crown_jewels.htm

    Someone noted that the Orb is under the Cross, whether it realised it or not.
  12. Model195Fan

    Model195Fan Member

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    You're close, but not right on. It actually says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This means, as you say, that there could be no national religion like in England. It also meant that Congress could not make any law negating the existing state establishments of religion, of which there were a few. MA did not get off the state religion kick until very early in the 19th century. I am by no means advocating that any of our 50 (NOT 57!) States adopt a state religion; I am simply noting that it is NOT unConstitutional for them to do so.
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  13. Nighthawk

    Nighthawk New Member

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    Thanks for link, I found the Apocrypha books under a separate page and button.
    http://biblos.com/
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  14. raven818

    raven818 Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Not in your wildest imagination can you picture that, then or now.
  15. BlackEagle

    BlackEagle Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    I agree on the rewriting history bit to omit the Christian foundations of the US, UK, and OZ. Communists rewrote God out of the histories of Russia, China, and other countries.

    Have you heard of David Barton and the Wall Builders? They have a lot of resources, easily read, listened to, or watched that describe the Biblical basis of the US Government. The front page of the website advertises Barton's most recent book, The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You've Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson. The blurb concludes with
    Wall Builders website: http://shop.wallbuilders.com/The-Jefferson-Lies-Book
  16. Shoobee

    Shoobee Former Guest

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    http://apocrypha.org/

    Youre right, the Apocrypha is on an icon lower down on the page.

    Thanks Nighthawk for pointing that out.
  17. 45Auto

    45Auto Active Member

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    Given that established religious organizations don't have to pay taxes in the USA it would appear that they are well respected by the US Govt. and the FREEDOM of religion is as strong as it has ever been.

    The restriction that pisses off some religions is that religious organizations cannot use the Govt to help them grow and expand their organizations. (For example, entering public schools and "introducing" the Jewish kids to Christ)

    Unfortunately, Govt attempts to be impartial to any one religion has caused some religions to claim that Christianity is under attack. As long as the various churches of the USA do not have to pay taxes such claims are hogwash.
  18. Shoobee

    Shoobee Former Guest

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    As far as ancient and historic heroes, I have dozens.

    First, the historians, for bringing that knowledge to us --

    Moses 1450 BC
    Herodotus 425 BC
    Diodorus Siculus 100 BC

    We actually owe more to Moses than we realize. There is reason to believe that he invented our alphabet, from Egyptian hieroglyphics to simplify it, which he then taught to Hebrew scribes. The ancient Greeks added vowels, which Moses had forgot to think about.

    Then moving through history, King Leonidas, the Spartan who fought and died with his personal bodyguard to give the Athenians time to evacuate their city and mobilize their fleet, otherwise democracy in Athens and freedom in Greece would have forever ended.

    Leonidas and his men are the forefathers for the modern tradition of the United States Marines, never to surrender, death before dishonor. And they really do it, they don't just talk about it.

    After him, around 700 years later, Constantine the Great who legalized Christianity and made it the state Roman religion, which saved it from a likely doom, due to his vision of the cross in the sky, and the voice that spoke to him out of the sky like St. Paul.

    Columbus (Christoforo Colombo) sailing out into the wide Atlantic and stumbling across North America is also a hero as well, although a ruthless and murderous one at times.

    George Washington next comes to mind, as well as his close friend Benjamin Franklin.

    For those of us who speak the English language, we can all thank Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington, for brilliantly defeating Napoleon at Waterloo. Otherwise we would all be speaking French, and who knows what else about history might have changed. Ironically though, England was the USA's main enemy at the time of the Napoleonic wars.

    Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses Grant were also superstars in the history of the USA and the western democracies. England and France both owe them as well, since otherwise the USA could not have come to their defense 100 years later at Normandie.

    After having been thrust into WW2 by the Empire of Japan, it is thanks to Admiral Chester Nimitz who sunk all their aircraft carriers at Midway that preserved America and the English language after that. Otherwise we would now be speaking Japanese or German, depending on who the final victor of that outcome would have been, probably Germany, since they were also close to building their own A-bomb.

    Eisenhower got a lot of the credit in WW2, but Nimitz probably deserved as much or more of it.

    JFK bravely and brilliantly steered the nation through the Cuban/Soviet missile crisis. That was surely brave. But his private war with the Mafia probably is what got him killed. We will never know. Same with his brother RFK as well.

    I am thankful to General Creighton Abrams for ending the Viet Nam War before I was drafted to go over there. My NROTC deferrment was almost over with by the time that place fell like a rathole to an invasion of snakes. When I was a kid growing up, I looked at the world map and saw Viet Nam on it, and I wondered how in the heck anything that far away could matter enough to send our own young men to die over there. Unfortunately LBJ and his ego did not agree.

    Modern heroes? Hard to say. There has been so much reported corruption that it is hard to admire anybody anymore.

    Most recently I am thankful to John Roberts, chief justice of the USSC, for upholding gun rights. What a big surprise for California and DC and the other states that the US Bill Of Rights pertains to them also! It took John Roberts to point that out to them, in a 5 to 4 ruling. I guess 4 of the USSC justices cannot read plain English.
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
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