Todays confrontation

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by Crpdeth, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    I'm making this post as a means to possibly review a conflict I had with a man today and hopefully hash out what I did right and what I did wrong for my future benefit and perhaps other readers as well.

    I was eating in Burger King, a treat for me because I try to shun fast foods as much as possible, I had chosen a "tactical seat" as I call it, for my wife and I, where I could see both doorways... I noticed a large stocky black man and his wife enter the establishment, a nicely dressed couple...and vaguely recall him being "hard to please" at the counter.

    My wife had chosen not to eat, so when I said I was finished eating and went for a Dr Pepper refill she headed out to the truck, the man was still near the front counter attempting to correct his to-go order when I walked past him and accidentally bumped his arm, I had walked about 5 or 6 steps away when he yelled "Hey!" very loudly and I could see through my peripheral vision that he was approaching me quickly, as I turned to face him I could tell he was very upset...Then he started cussing and demanding an apology, folks I'll be the first to admit that as a CCW license holder that I should have obliged him with an apology, but there was a bit of anger stirring inside me and I didn't think I deserved to be swore at for an accident that was probably as much his fault as mine, after a minute of listening to his mouth I decided it was time to warn him about the fact that I was carrying, but as I said "I'm going to warn you" he interrupted with more belligerent, loud argument...Soooo, now mad, :eek: I set my sunglasses on the counter and asked him what his intentions were from here, he responded "My point has been made" at which time I said "that's about what I thought" and proceeded outside, but he was walking behind me a little close so I stopped and faced him once outdoors while he walked past me on to his car, he was continuing to make comments so I told him that "It's obvious that you don't want none" and went on to my truck. Once home I called the restaurant manager who had witnessed everything to ask if the Police had been called so that I could return if necessary, she stated that the Police had not been called, but confirmed that the black man had indeed been very rude to her staff and had changed his order several times.

    I'm embarrassed that I did provoke this guy a couple time and I realize that as a CCW holder that I should have been A LOT more mature than that, but with that said, I think I had become angry mostly because the guy was obviously not giving me a chance to communicate rationally, or to warn him that I would use deadly force to protect my well being if his actions escalated...It appeared that short, no-nonsense, not gonna take your bull, statements is all I was going to get into the conversation.

    Comments please? It worries me that in a busy place like this, that someone could possibly be loud and contentious enough that I may have to draw my weapon just to let him know it is there.


    Crpdeth
  2. flopshot

    flopshot New Member

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    you're right. unfortunately as a cc you are obligated to be more tolerant of this kind of crap. don't know about tx law but in nc you actually lose some perks with a cc. that's why i won't have one. even in your own home the rules change. besides, think of what the kennedy's and schumers could do with the headlines.
  3. SouthernMoss

    SouthernMoss *Admin Tech Staff*

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    Did the man ever give you the impression that he wanted to do more than just mouth off and cuss? If it was obvious that he was just a lot of hot air, then I don't think any mention should have been made about your concealed weapon. However, if he made threating moves toward you, then you would have been within your rights to inform him that you were armed.

    I do agree that you should not provoke someone like this man; it only eggs them on. Having said that, I think overall you showed admirable restraint in dealing with this idiot.
  4. user_error

    user_error New Member

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    Your self-criticism is right on the mark. I wouldn't have given you any other "don't do it" advice than what you've already given yourself. However, I *never* would have turned my back on a guy who was belligerent and apparently looking for some trouble. ESPECIALLY if he were "walking a little close" behind you.
  5. user_error

    user_error New Member

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    Possible NYT headline: Man Shoots African American at Area McDonalds
    Schumer pushes for hate crime legislation
  6. KyBlaster

    KyBlaster New Member

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    As a reflex I guess I always say "sorry about that" if I accidentally bump someone. If someone starts giving me crap and I'm packing, I try to retreat saying as little as possible. As far as telling someone I'm carrying, if they find that out, its because they just got shot. (Mine or someone elses life was in danger) If I was approached by several guys in a threatening manner I might draw down on them and back away. I would never warn someone that I was carrying.(They might be a quicker draw than me)

    I guess what I'm saying is I tend to be less aggressive if I'm carrying.(I don't want to be the poster child to some liberal's cause.) And if I need to let someone know I have a weapon its because I feel deadly force is necessary. That person will know I have a weapon because they will see it or feel it.

    My .02
  7. Deputy Dawg

    Deputy Dawg Active Member

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    KyBaster, that is the way it should be,I see it the same way you do.
  8. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    Thanks for the responses Guys!

    Somo, I am of the opinion that if a man is in your face (in your space) hollering and cussing, then I believe you have to assume that they may be planning to cause you harm...Given the size of the man he could definately cause life threatening injuries with a relatively light (to him) punch to the throat of most guys.

    Thanks, this is something I would like to discuss further here.

    I'd love to discuss this further...I may need a CCW refresher course, but wouldnt you agree that the mention of "being licensed by the State to carry the firearm that you feel you are about be forced to use" would disolve most serious arguements BEFORE the need to cancel someone? This, I think is where I have a problem with a few arguements, I dont want the arguement to heighten to the point that I have to draw and shoot...And there again I may need a refresher course but I would tend to believe the guy deserved to be warned - and I may be off base again, but it seems to me that a judge would like to hear that you did warn him, maybe several times, before pulling your piece...

    Point taken, but I was definately keeping an eye on the situitation and constantly accessing what was going on...At this point, it was time to take it outside, but I was being carefull, this may be one of those "ya had to have been there" things, but I felt safe enough (at that point) to do so.


    Agreed once again, but you carry for a reason, people like this guy are obviously the reason.

    I'm not painting myself to be perfect in this scenario, I definately showed some childish behavior and want to learn from it, but when you are in a possible life threatening situitation you really wont be worried about what Schumer has to say about you.

    Crpdeth
  9. Deputy Dawg

    Deputy Dawg Active Member

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    I wuold not have told him i was carrying unless you felt is was absolutely necessary and you feared for your life.What if he was packing also, I would want the element of surprise. I forgot to say if you accidently flash your weapon you can loose your CCW permit, I know that is a bummer :( but you are held to a higher standard than joe blow. It would be to your benefit to think and react as if you were not armed,unless you feared for your life.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2005
  10. user_error

    user_error New Member

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    With regards to the headline... any action you take with a weapon, no matter how justified, would be portrayed as "calculated", "cold-blooded" and of course having "racial components" by the mainstream media. It wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at the New York Times. ;)
  11. KyBlaster

    KyBlaster New Member

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    I'm not saying I'm just going to throw down and start shooting at the drop of a hat. I'm saying if I'm in a verbal conflict with an unarmed man, no matter how big he is, I will not draw my weapon. No need to warn him. I will either fight him the conventional way, try to talk the situation down or run.

    However, if I am confronted by an armed assailant, see someone else being attacked where I think they will be killed or wittness a rape etc. I will shoot first, talk later.
  12. user_error

    user_error New Member

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    According to AZ dept of public safety: "example #2: you are in a headed argument that turns into shoving and punching. To make a point, you pull back your coat, revealing your gun. You put your hand on the gun and tell the other person that he had better buzz off or you will end hte argument right now. Simple assault + deadly weapon = aggravated assault."
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2005
  13. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    Okay, I guess this is the grey area for me, and again I'm enjoying the opportunity to kick this around...Guys, no offence taken, If I wanted everyone on my side I would have candy coated the story, not the case! I posted as a means to stop and reflect as a way to better deal with future problems in my mind before they arise.

    Deputy, okay what if he is carrying... What if he has a 7" fixed blade in the back of his pants, at what point in the arguement would you react? There is a good chance that he's not going to start yelling that he's going to kill you UNTILL the blade is in his hand, at that time you are going to have precious seconds to wrench the firearm from it's secure location.

    I also totally understand the element of surprise, but dont you agree as I stated above that the mention of being licensed by the State, blaa blaa blaa, would make most people first of all stop and wonder, ok who is this guy? Is he in a position of authority? The State of Texas? That sounds serious, and secondly of course that there is a big chance of being shot... Wouldn't that make most people stop and consider their next move a little more cautiously.

    Fair enough, been in a few fights myself and most result in no more than swollen hands, black eyes and busted egos, but as bullet proof as I sometimes think I am...I'm not, I've seen my share of one punch knock outs in my life and can show you some on video, I said all that to say this, if I'm carrying, I dont think I'm obligated by law to go fist ta' cuff with anyone, what if I do go down and he retrives my pistol, what if I just slip and it falls out where he can grab it and kill me and others who try to stop him?

    Again, I'm enjoying the debate, if you can call it that, no hard feelings here...If there were I'd flash my license! :D

    Crpdeth
  14. KyBlaster

    KyBlaster New Member

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    No hard feelings, crpdeth. I too enjoy a good spirited debate.

    I just feel that when you take on the responsibility of "going heavy", you should choose your battles wisely. Avoid the petty confrontations that could land you in a world of hurt.(With the courts.) I know its hard with some of the punks out there today. Especially in front of your spouse. But if your in jail for assult with a deadly weapon, brandishing a weapon or worse, your not going to help anyone or yourself.

    When you really need your weapon be quick, deliberate and accurate.
  15. KyBlaster

    KyBlaster New Member

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    By the way, where is Paris? I used to live in Rockdale.(about 45 min. east of Austin)

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