Trading Freedom For Security...

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by Shizamus, Apr 30, 2003.

  1. Shizamus

    Shizamus New Member

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    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
    temporary safety, observed Benjamin Franklin, "deserve neither
    liberty nor safety". The harsh verdict of history sustains the bitter
    truth of Dr. Franklin's observation. Those who give up essential
    liberty to obtain a little temporary safety end up trading freedom
    for security. The present moment calls for sober reflection on that grim warning. Are we giving up essential liberties in the war on
    terror for the promise of safety ? In the name of security are we concentrating and institutionalizing power in such ways that we are inviting terror far beyond what any terrorist group could ever hope to inflict on us ? Recall that throughout history and
    particularly in the past century, governments have been by far
    the primary and most lethal instruments of terror. Lenin, Hitler,
    Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and their fellow dictators
    have proven the most efficient terrorists. Wielding unbridled
    power, they have turned the state into an instrument of terror,
    death, and destruction. In our stampede to safety after the 9-11
    attacks, have we been rushing headlong into a deadly trap ?
    We have already allowed an incredible and unprecedented
    concentration of power, threatening to destroy all constitutional
    protections. The new Department of Homeland Security and the
    USA Patriot Act represent an enormous restructuring and
    centralizing of power. These radical innovations' full impact has
    not even begun to be told. Yet each day brings word of new
    proposals calling for the federal government to usurp more
    power, and for the states and the people to surrender more of
    their rights, freedoms, and reponsibilities. Projecting the lines of
    trajectory from current trends, we could soon be living in an
    ORWELLIAN POLICE STATE.

    THE #1 ISSUE FACING US TODAY IS GOVERNMENT TERRORISM .

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  2. Marlin

    Marlin *TFF Admin Staff Chief Counselor*

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    Franklin's words have never been more apropos than today. I have used that statement as one of the bases for my philosophy while on the bench for thirty+ years.

    This is another stark example of the fantastic insight the founders had. Many say their thoughts and dreams were only applicable to colonial times. However, it is very seldom these days that we find persons with such precise insight. Whoa to us for our abridged insight and the resultant consequences if nothing is done and we stand by thinking its a job for someone
    else. :mad: :mad: :mad:

    You hit the nail on the head, Shiz - -

    "THE #1 ISSUE FACING US TODAY IS GOVERNMENT TERRORISM."

    If we don't guard against it now, it will be worse than the proverbial shutting of the barn door AFTER the horse is gone.
  3. tuckerd1

    tuckerd1 Well-Known Member

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    We shall never accept peace at the cost of 'the loss of freedom.'
  4. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    Good post, Shizamus. I agree 100%. Homeland Security and the Patriot Act are only the latest of a long string of measures that are slowly but surely turning our beloved country into what we most fear.

    Only after it's too late, will the American sheep wake up and realize that they are truly not safe. They will realize with horror that when they hid under the bed they allowed our government to become a tyrannical state. Blood will one day have to be spilled in America to once again reclaim our rights and liberties. Whether it will happen tomorrow, next year, or 50 years from now, nobody knows. But we are surely heading down that road.
  5. Shizamus

    Shizamus New Member

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  6. TF118

    TF118 New Member

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    This quote is a good point however it should not be used to condem the war on terrorists...to take no actions to protect Americans from terrorist would be to fail and betray the trust of the people ...only a left winger would choose not to fight

    NO



    NO

    While this administration or any of our past administrations have not met everyone's expectations, and at times some of our extremist lobby groups make a bunch of noise to have laws changed or implicated to get their way because not enough people from the majority stood up to counteract them there is no friggen way that you can or should compare our gov't to those you named here...we aint perfect but we are nothing like them nor does our gov't have any inclination to become like them


    NO...only the TERRORIST are running into a trap...one brought onto themselves by attacking us


    I sense a bit of ''Chicken Little '' syndrome ....a F A R left almost anti-American attitude ...no faith that the people will not let the gov't go to that extreme ...nor would the gov't be so inclined...I call B.S.

    THE ONLY ISSUE FACING US TODAY IS TERRORISM & THE LEFT WING NUTS THAT THINK THAT THE GOV'T ATTEMPT'S TO BATTLE TERRORISM IS SOME ''CONSPIRUSY'' AGAINST US...IT IS JUST AS RADICLE AND EXTREME AS THE VERY TERRORIST THEMSELVES ....Do you have any realistic plan to combat terrorisim ? Until you do don't be so quick to judge ...at least we're doing something and its aimed at preventing terrorist attacks and combating terrorist's...I'm certain it's not a perfect plan but then what plan is?
    Last edited: May 3, 2003
  7. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    As I sit here on a Saturday evening with a brewski in my hand, I am suddenly compelled to reply to this, in defense of Shizamus.

    TF118, with all due respect, I think Shizamus's attitude here is about as American as you can get. Our country was founded on a deep-seated mistrust of powerful government. The framers of the Constitution attempted to put in place certain limits on federal power. Over the last two-hundred some-odd years, our government has trampled over those restrictions. And it continues to do so. The founding fathers warned us of it in their political and personal writings, and they have been proven right.

    I'm one of those people that has "no faith that the people will not let the gov't go to that extreme". Take a look at our insane gun laws.... a clear violation of our rights. Where were "the people" then? And as our government puts into place certain measures that will allow them to peer into our personal lives and our bank accounts, where are "the people"?

    I'm not saying that our government necessarily has a secret plan to grab total power. I'm just saying that every year, somebody comes up with a good excuse to take away one more basic right from the American people. And every year, the people let them take away these rights. As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Today we give up certain freedoms in order to feel safe in our homes from terrorists. What will the excuse be tomorrow?

    I would rather take my chances against another terror attack than live in a police state. And trust me, that's where we're headed. Another good saying goes like this: it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
  8. TF118

    TF118 New Member

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    Sniper, I couldn't agree more with that statement ...I just think that ...in my opinion ...or the way I interpreted shiz...it sounds to me that its implied that the gov't is conspiring to have a police state ...and while on one hand I don't like a lot of what our gov't does ...ok , I wouldn't trust them to run my affairs and I think that their capable of some pretty low stuff... I do believe in the system that our fore fathers put in place...I believe that the gov't is taking nessasary steps to try to head off terrorist...I really do believe that this is their honest attempt and the gov't doesn't have a hidden adjenda, however certain 'groups' may see an opportunity to bend the rules to suit their cause ...therein lies the danger...accusing the gov't of being like Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein is a little dramatic ...maybe the state you live in has more gun laws than mine...in Vermont there arn't many...other than fed and I do agree that they have some B.S. federal laws regarding firearms, they were the work of anti-gun groups not the gov't.....the anti's got loud and the majority was lazy... no ...the gov't is doing what the public is asking them to do...protect them from terrorist...it is our job as 'we the people ' to make sure they don't get out of hand...just so you know I don't exactly love our gov't or completely trust them ...I know they lie ...I'm a quadriplegic from my Gulf War service and they lied and denied things but I proved my case ...you got to draw a line some where and read between the lines...you have to see whats under the surface... I still believe in 'for the people by the people '...if you don't like what ''the gov't '' is doing then we must all get off our collective butts and change it!! Too many people sit by griping about 'the gov't' and do nothing to change it...thats how the anti-gun' people get laws changed/added in their favor ...they all ban together and beat the majority because we are to complacant ...and if anyone can come up with a better plan then I'm all ears...I don't like the idea of 'big brother ' looking over my shoulder whenever they want but hey they been doing it for years...only now their telling you about it...I got nothin to hide
    Last edited: May 3, 2003
  9. WyomingSwede

    WyomingSwede Guest

    Gotta agree with TF118. I dont think that we are living in a police state...certain measures need to be taken to protect the people.

    And if and when the people fell they dont need these measures...they will be deleted and fall by the wayside. You dont see relocation camps for americans of Iraqi descent do you???
    All lot of the measures implemented during World War II were similar, yet they went by the wayside after the conflict was over.

    I dont think that you are giving the American people enough credit. They will vote out those who tread too heavily. Remember last election where every vote counted???

    swede
  10. pickenup

    pickenup Active Member

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    With the laws that have been passed in “some” states already, (along with the fact that these cancerous laws are slowly spreading) as well as the patriot act I (possibly II) coming into play. I cannot see how anyone could possibly think, that we are not, headed into a police state. (Which may, or may not, happen within this generation, but is inevitable) The original intent of some of the laws may have been honorable to begin with, but they just opened the door, so that the gun grabbers could perverted and twist new laws to support their agenda, until finally the gun grabber do not even hide what they are trying to do. They want all guns, and a subservient population, and will settle for nothing less. This was started LONG before 9/11 ever happened. To use terrorism “now” as a excuse to pass unconstitutional laws, still results in having UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws! The apathy of “we the people” is what has led us into this sad state of affairs, and the same apathy will be the downfall of us all. My question is, when/where do you draw the line? I have to wonder, it is already too late.
  11. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    TF118, we're on the same page, I think. I know the government is passing laws in reaction to the public outcry for protection. But I do honestly wonder if/when these measures will ever go away. We have to look at the larger trends.

    Let's step back and look at "freedom" as it was known in, say, 1785. Men could live their whole lives on their own land with minimal contact with the government. Perhaps paying land taxes was the only reason they ever saw a government employee. They lived their lives as they saw fit.

    Then step forward to today. At the very moment of birth, we are cataloged and put into the system. The law intrudes into every aspect of our lives, from the education of our children to the way we build our houses. There is nothing you can do that doesn't have some law associated with it.

    I fear that in another 200 years, the trend will have gone that much further. Yes, we may have short periods where we lose and regain liberties. But OVERALL, we have lost liberties. And we will continue to lose them. I'm not saying it's a plot by the government. Perhaps it is an actual movement by the people. But at some point the people will look back and regret that they freely gave away certain freedoms.

    Growing up during the latter part of the Cold War, I remember my parents telling me how lucky I was to have been born in the United States. They told me how horrible it was in the Soviet Union, where people had to be careful what they said and where they went, because 'Big Brother' was watching. My parents told me that the people of the Soviet Union had to have papers to go from place to place, and that the KGB watched everyone. I believed my parents when they said that kind of thing would never happen here because we were free.

    And now as an adult, I have started to see measures passed by our government that are shockingly similar. Sure, it may be under the guise of protecting us from terrorists. Just as, I'm sure, the USSR was protecting itself from the West.
  12. TF118

    TF118 New Member

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    We are on the same page …we all share the same concerns ….we may just be looking from slightly different views…there will always be ‘gun grabbers ‘ to guard against …and they will always continue to take our guns…NEVER HAPPEN…and guns are not the only issue …but the U.S. will never cross the line to become the very thing we battle …the very thing that this country became separate from and what we have fought and died for, for over 200 years…those that would impose such rule would be weeded out…if our gov’t does go to far before the majority wakes up and attempts to impose such a gov’t on us you will see a revolution rite here …anything else would fly in the face of everything this country was founded on and has stood for and fought for…it would no longer be the USA ..THEY CAN HAVE MY GUNS WHEN THEY PRY MY COLD DEAD HANDS FROM THEM… it’s not just a slogan ….it’s a warning
  13. Shizamus

    Shizamus New Member

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    Sniper in an earlier post agreed with me 100% he claimed,
    then TF118 comes along and disputes everything i said, and the
    way i see it TF118 agrees about 0% with me. And then we have
    Sniper and TF118 claiming that they are on the same page, and
    I am claiming that me and TF118 are not on the same page and not in the same book even most of the time.
    I'll pause a little......:confused:

    REALITY IS SCOFFED AT AND ILLUSION IS KING.

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  14. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    Shizamus, I agree with you that our nation is becoming a police state.

    But I also agree with TF118 that it probably is not some grand conspiracy.... and that the American people are at fault for letting it happen. After all, if the American people didn't like what our leaders were doing, they would vote them out of office, right?

    The only thing I still disagree with TF118 on is his claim that the Homeland Security Dept. and the Patriot Act(s) are necessary and justified.

    It IS possible to agree on certain points while disagreeing on others, and still be "on the same page". I saw nothing in your original post which implied that you believe this to be a conspiracy against the American people. So I agree with you on the warning that our freedoms are being taken without full realization on what we are getting into.
  15. TF118

    TF118 New Member

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    Shiz ... the king...no doubt ... long live the king...we do not live in a police state ... nor will we ever ...in my opinion anyone that see's any resemblance to, or would imply any simularity between our gov't and Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, isn't packin a full mag.

    The only 'page' Shiz and I appear to be on beside's agreeing to disagree is we're both concerned with our gov't and we both wish to preserve our Constituteional rights...only someone is a 'realist' and one should be on the X files ...over reacting ...seeing a conspirousy around every corner ...but both mean well ...this is only my opinion and not meant to be insulting to anyone so no offence...I also might add that I still as yet to hear what plan the king would unviel to prevent terrorism on US soil or against US interest's ...when you have a better plan I'd love to hear it...or should we / the gov't sit on it's duff and do nothing ? Good things like freedom don't come free...in a perfect world the terrorist would all have a crimson 'T' tattoed on their forehead and identification would be simple ...but it ain't a perfect world
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