Training Methodology And Perceived Threat(s)

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by kilogulf59, May 31, 2008.

  1. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    This topic, I feel, is rather significant, when discussing training methodologies, as one must understand where the other person’s estimation is coming from, in what personal reality it is based.

    As for me, it is either a street confrontation i.e. mugging attack or a burglary/home invasion scenario. My probable assailant(s) are usually one or two.

    It is upon these conditions that I base my training and strategy. Obviously, this is an encapsulated criterion, as the number of sub-variants is virtually unlimited.

    For some reason I used to “see” only one foe however, upon practical reflection, I have made it a minimum of two “people”.

    What is your perceived threat, in other words, what are you visualizing as your potential adversarial situation?
  2. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    This is a very important subject. I think it comes down to treat assessment. The difficulty is being realistic. I think most will under or over estimate a danger. The danger any one individual faces will vary a great deal with their circumstances.

    I am sure some carry two primary weapons and a .380 back up, all with spr. mags. Non of which they are ever likley to need. Overkill? No pun intended.

    Regarding training I would try to make it worse case orientated. That is to say multiple targets with:
    1) Little or no warning 2) Close Range and 3) Low light, such as dusk or night.

    My final words however are assess your own risk as best you can, and while perhaps only 5% of those who carry for defense are going to need their gun, which 5% is it?
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2008
  3. user

    user New Member

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    I assume three, as to preparation. I figure more than that, or people better equipped than me could happen, but I'm not trying to protect myself against "nuclear combat toe to toe with the Russkies", so three is probably a safe assumption. It's a matter of "probability and outcome".

    However, when it comes to practical application, You can't really fight more than one assailant at a time, even if there's lots, and they're coming at you quickly. So you have to prioritize the threat, protect yourself against all peripheral threats, and eliminate them one at a time. If you have to think about it, you'll probably die, because that will take too long. You can either think or do, you can't have both at once. So I assume one after the other really quickly.

    Clint Eastwood's character in "High Plains Drifter" comes to mind. The scene in the barber shop when the three tough-guys come in to give him grief. He couldn't get them all at once, but he didn't waste any time, either.

    I also find it instructive to watch samurai movies, and I especially like the katana-choreography in a Japanese TV show I think was on in the 'eighties, "Aberenbo Shogun". The Shogun escapes from the Palace dressed as "the third son of a common hatamoto", and goes around with a fake name righting injustices and protecting the downtrodden. There is always a scene that starts with something like, "You dare to impersonate the Shogun? Men! Kill him!", and then he has to dispatch thirty or forty guys with swords. And it's always textbook swordplay, cut, slash, stab, thrust; one after the other in quick succession. The process of dispatching one assailant should put you in position to deal with the next.
  4. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    TranterUK, I believe you just described the statistical typical gunfight AND the reason people go armed, essentially my training scenario too.

    User, that’s true sir and the reason I posed the question. I have heard some folks claim “must be nice to know when, where, and by how many, you’ll be attacked” and that sounds great - from behind a monitor. In reality, we all have to assess our daily threat level or we would never leave our bunkers. A line has to be drawn somewhere right, the where part is the key. Alas, that is an intelligence gathering and preparedness issue so I will save that one for later.

    Now, when you practice, however that may be, do you see a target or an assailant? Are you “there” mentally or on your range or backyard? Do you think about "possibilities" walking down the street, in the store with the Mrs., going to sleep at night or only when it is brought into conversation?

    Please understand, I do not mean to insinuate one should see “boogie men” everywhere. My point is visualization, mental imagery if you will, as a tool.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2008
  5. Vladimir

    Vladimir New Member

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    My training is just shooting over and over, occasionally some more tactical stuff from cover and whatnot but rare. Will be doing more of that this summer with access to my dad's range (which offers us a private training range where we can essentially do whatever we want).

    My perceived threat is primarily in a nasty situation. I think it is impossible to prepare for anything, so I figure if I can draw and put the bullets where I want them that is the best I can hope for- and with that I will be prepared for almost any threat that presents itself.

    I always say, I don't carry to stop the would-be-mugger. I carry to stop the whacked out psychopath at the mall who intends to take a dozen lives before his own. I know where I am going, it's those dozen other people I worry about.
  6. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    “I always say, I don't carry to stop the would-be-mugger. I carry to stop the whacked out psychopath at the mall who intends to take a dozen lives before his own. I know where I am going, it's those dozen other people I worry about.“

    A noble thought indeed Vladimir however I wonder what the mathematical odds are of you being there and that occurring. Nonetheless, it is obviously a valid circumstance albeit a complex one.

    Since the two training scenarios (anti-mugging vs. terrorist takedown) are at opposite ends of the combat shooting spectrum Vladimir, you should train for both. In effect, the shooting skills required are on the outermost edge of the handgun speed-precision-distance curve and are going to cost you much time and money to master and then maintain year after year.

    In actuality the shooting itself is a small part of this type of training. By small part I mean it is essentially a mechanical function, it will be a large part of your physical time. The mental aspects however are overwhelming considering the shock and utter chaos that will be occurring around you. In all that, you must be able to draw, identify the assailant(s), and place a 2-round burst into the head of said psychopath within a few seconds. The distance will undoubtedly be at least 10 yards, probably farther as a terrorist is going to take out anyone who may be a threat or resembles one, so you had better bank on 25-yard headshots. Oh, that head will undoubtedly be moving, another consideration.

    Then there is the most important aspect to remember, you cannot shoot an innocent person, no easy task in a stampede. Oh, and while all this is going on, you have to pray the no police officer blows your head off first thinking you are the threat.

    Don’t misunderstand me Vladimir, I am not saying not to do something, protect your family, get out of there and call the police, then help as much as you can until the cavalry arrives. If repeat if you get a shot that you are 100% sure of, then it’s up to you my friend but I’d leave the anti-terrorist scenarios to the professionals.

    This is simply my opinion on this and I offer it as friendly advice, I am, by no means, an expert….
  7. UncleFudd

    UncleFudd Member

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    Really good, thought provoking stuff guys. Sometimes posts such as these make us reevaluate our activities.

    I am always curious about others as well as myself when it comes to defending my life or the life of a loved one. Having been there once I find it best to plan for a "reaction". Meaning that someone with very nasty intentions toward me or my family has already committed the "action".
    Will I then be injured, possibly fatally? Will others in my family already have fallen to this unknown assailants action(s)?
    If it happens and follows the norm, it will be low light and at home. (about 84% currently). Will I have my firearm at hand or will I or others in the family have to fight to get to it? Where in my home will I be and where will the threat find entrance or make it?
    I have spent years thinking and just as you have done kilogulf I create scenarios. Yes I do this with outside situations as well.

    Knowing that it can happen is enough to make me try to stay vigil as much as I can. along with that, I try to make myself appear to be so alert that the threat will believe there are others who will be an easier target. I do the same with my home. I honestly believe we can do more for our self defense by being proactive than anything we can possibly do when being reactive. Does it not make sense to you guys to think or to know that if the other guy has acted first, you are at a terrible disadvantage and limit your possibility of survival at all, depending upon his/her intent?
    In my case I was sitting on my harley with the engine running and the bike still in gear. The guy stepped out and began shooting with no warning of any kind. This is what I mean when I say action vs reaction. I had no other choice than to try to ride away, NOT, or if able, try to do something, anything to stop the threat.
    I hope never to be caught in such a situation ever again. I will do everything/anything in my power to be as proactive in my defense as possible. I will not allow anyone close to or inside my perimeter.
    So along with practice with my firearms, I spend a lot of time with the virtual reality simulator. I have spent a lot of money for scenarios for this sim and every student who attends one of my courses gets time on this sim. They say this kind of training establishes a muscle memory or locks the action v reaction of the scenario into the short term memory system of our brain.

    BTW if you have not done so, there is a wonderful book you should read having to do with the brain and why we do what we do in these types of horrible situations.
    It is called " Sharpening the Warriors Edge" by Bruce K Siddel. I have read it several times and often use it as a reference. It is very well written for every educational level including a layman such as myself. I was also very fortunate to have attended a law enforcement training seminar many years ago where Bruce was a keynote instructor. It was perhaps one of the best training programs I have ever attended before or since.
    You guys are spot on IMHO and these questions and possible solutions are great. WE should spend a lot of time reading the thoughts of others so as to improve our own fields of operations.

    For now as I have for many years I will practice and more so I will spend most of my time "hardening my perimeters". I will make it very difficult to approach my home with evil intent. I will and do have some wonderful early warning devices that allow me to be aware of your presence long before you reach any entrance. I will try not to allow you to surprise me or my family members.
    If you do breach our security preperations, we have great telecomunications as well as the tools necessary to stop you from hurting any one of us. More so, we are absolutely resolute in our determination to do ANYTHING necessary to stop you immediatley and we care not a whit about anything except stopping you then and there.

    From what you all have said, I believe I am a part of a majority in my thinking and plans to survive as well as to when or where the threats may or could take place. By our own efforts and thoughts and plans we will probably have some input into these choices by the bad guys which in my mind makes it very difficult for them to succeed therefore limiting the possibility they will even try one of us.

    Stay safe, always.

    UF
  8. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    I'm a big believer in "handicap scenarios" or where you begin your drill in unfavorable conditions.

    I believe practicing in a scenario where you have an advantage only prepares you for a fraction of realistic threats.

    When things go wrong...the crap hits the fan ya know....it is rarely going to happen when the victim has the upper hand. I think most will agree with this too.

    Drawing your weapon and firing from the prone/side/supine...

    Lunging 5 feet to your weapon, securing it, and engaging with weak hand...

    Walking from a bright room into a dim room and engaging randomly moved targets....

    Engaging with your dominant eye patched shut...

    Beginning your drill with a stove-pipe in the slide...

    Firing from seated positions...
  9. user

    user New Member

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    Ol' Uncle: on your recommendation, I went to Borders (I had a 30% off coupon) and ordered a copy. Still in print, hardcover, about $20. (The author's name, I found, is spelled "Sidle", however.) Thanks for the recommendation.
  10. UncleFudd

    UncleFudd Member

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    USER;

    You are right and MY BAD. As much as I enjoy amd have used his material I am surprised that I misspelled his name.

    also thank you for letting everyone know it is still in print.

    I an absolutely certain you will enjoy but would appreciate hearing back when you hae had a chance to read.

    Thanks again.

    UF
  11. Chuck B

    Chuck B New Member

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    I ordered the book from B & N and they spelled the name: Siddle. Go figure.

    Looks like a very good read. I'm presently reading "The Farnam Method of Defensive Handgunning" and have benefited from it thus far.

    Awareness and mindset are so important...they inform and provide the context and content of how we train & prepare. I didn't understand the importance of this until I got my CCL. Up to that point my habit was to stand motionless in front of a paper target and squeeze off rounds at my leisure. This sort of "training" has some value but is not reality based when it comes to a real fight (as described by the OP and others).

    Thanks for the thread and discussion.

    Don't forget to check your 6.

    Chuck B
  12. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Just along that note......one night go shoot some targets with your sidearm with car headlights as the only illumination....offset the vehicle oblique and also directly behind and see the effect it has on your sight picture/point of impacts.
  13. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    Assuming one has realistically envisioned their possible threats, realize well that the skills required are not, nor should they be, complex or task specific. The exception is the terrorist situation that Vladimir had envisioned, though in reality one should have elementary knowledge of long range, rapid fire, and highly precise shooting skills, the mastery of such is not a general requirement.

    Mindset is most critical as someone mentioned. I have a piece on “Key Mindsets” that I would be more than happy to post should there be interest. Incidentally please remember that the pistol, knife, or club is not the weapon…you are. Humans, though the weakest species on the planet, are obviously the most dangerous, we can think. The pebble did not kill Goliath - David did.

    Well I am pressed for now however the discussion is very interesting and I am learning as we go folks, thank you.

    To really grasp the phases of close combat with pistols, regardless of envisioned scenarios, one must read The Sight Continuum by 7677. “7677” is the nom de plume of an active Federal Officer and renowned trainer. He is definitely a man whose advice is worth a good listen. Here is a bit about him for those of you who do not know him already:

    Military:
    - 4 years Active Duty, Cold and Gulf War
    - 3 years Reserves, 95th Training Battalion, Instructor

    Law Enforcement:
    - 5 years (patrol) City Pd
    - 2 years (patrol) County Pd
    - 5 years (investigative) Federal

    Martial arts/self defense:
    - WWII Marine and Army Combatives
    - Jujitsu, Judo and Tae Kwon Do
    - Western Boxing and Wrestling.​

    In addition, he is a certified armorer and trainer (both civilian and LEO) and, as I am sure you all know, the author of many such excellent articles on the various forums.
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