Tyler Texas Shooting

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LIKTOSHOOT, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    CHL shot and killed, trying to defend. This should wake up all who have received this "limited" training. This man, some would consider a hero. I consider him one of the victims.


    LTS
  2. xxxxxxl

    xxxxxxl New Member

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    Why a victim? I'm curious.
  3. Roughrdr

    Roughrdr New Member

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    A victim of inadequte training, or a victim of his own devices.
  4. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    Shot perp center of mass, just as trained and recommended by so many. Shot perp while standing in open, at "face to face" distance. Didn't shoot and move, tried to "Hollywood." Didn't look for tell-tale signs of armor, intoxication, or drug high.

    At least he took action. It is apparent he distracted the killer from finishing off the son, and, thus, saved his life. That makes him a hero in my book.

    Pops
  5. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    Hear Hear!

    You dont have to be Rambo, I still consider him a hero, but why not make yourself less of a target? Maybe back off, find cover and go to work on the BG...I dont know I/we wern't there, but I cant see how making yourself a target is going to help your OWN family.

    .002
  6. inplanotx

    inplanotx New Member

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    The perp had a bullet proof vest AND a flak jacket on. Probably unknown to the poor hero type. Too bad, at least he did it by the regs!
  7. Silver72

    Silver72 New Member

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    This was a front page article in todays Austin American Statesman. The victim was an instructor in CHL. The town is having a memorial for him in front of the court house. He did what he was trained to do.
  8. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    I suspect that is a major difference between civilian/paramilitary training and my own covert operations training. I was trained to take cover or concealment at the first threat, THEN look for a way to inject my presence into the fray. This is what I teach because I have found it to be effective.

    Pops
  9. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    There are so many wrongs in this, where to begin???
    (1)Engaging a target in the open at close range, without cover.
    (2) Not continuing to fire when target does not go down (freezing) and seeking cover.
    #(3) The shots to center mass are great in training but you need to also remember head is number three OR just below the beltline a few inches left or right and dead center counts too. Two things stop a target, central nervous systems or it`s platform. If you are unaware of the hip shot, you need to rethink your training (seriously) While this man did engage the target, he did everything wrong.
    My point being, remember this.....it has happened before,ask the FBI about Florida and the numerous other shootings....(ie) California and the machinegun shoot out.

    This should be a learning experience, but it appears that "still" no one uses these senerio`s in training.


    LTS
  10. Neil

    Neil New Member

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    the news report I read said flack jacket and bullet proof vest. What would it take to penetrate through both?. perhaps a knee shot. or like LTS said, a hip shot.
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  11. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    And most civilian instructors never will because the majority of the bad guys dont go down and invest in kevlar...You probabally already know I agree with you, more training IS in order, people need to know how to use cover, fire w/their weak hand, shoot while moving, shoot from prone, on their side, their back, bright sunlight, no sunlight, identifying body armor in a high stress situation may not be easy, but again I concur that training to fire upon the assailants head, inner thigh/femeral artery, hip, knees ect may be in order, but in these high stress scenarios I dont know how much training one would need in order to actually take those calculated, precise, shots at a moving target which is returning fire with an automatic rifle.

    It may be unnecessary, but since I sound a little pugnacious, I want to reiterate that I agree with everything said, but even those with proper combat training seldom find the opportunity and the time to take advantage of their training in the frenzy of a gun battle...Play paintball one on one with someone in an abandoned CCB and it becomes quickly apparent that all those super tactical moves you planned to make just minutes before are debased to just tring to hit your opponent before he hits you.

    Our civilian training is based on scenarios that we will, in all reality, most likely have to face. And out of the 100's of students my instructor has mentored, the possibility of any of us ever facing a semi-auto toting, kevlar wearing, bone head is very remote. There are some awsome defensive pistol courses out there that probabally should be an addendum to our CCW classes, but If people would just remember to always stay alert, watch their surroundings, identify possible problems and think rationally, they would be way ahead when an unfortunate situation like this does arise.

    I've been thinking about the layout of our courthouse and I've got to say there are too many places to take cover and dispatch this guy from...Why would anyone just walk up and identify themselves to the BG, as the one who is here to "fix things" is beyond me.

    Crpdeth
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  12. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    Crpdeth, I must disagree with your Kevlar/flackjacket assumption. That has very little to do with the CHL`s engagement of the target. It is well know to disable the CNS of the target`s platform if the centermass has no results. Drug`s can enable a target to preform well beyond the human means and if you read the FBI`s Florida report and subsequent retraining of agents, those two targets were shot numerous times and continued to fight. No head shots nor hip shot`s, granted a hip shot will usally not kill, but it will take a target down and fast. The center mass below the beltline is still center mass and a major bone area for the platform. Simply shooting a fixed target for a score does not make you a handgun fighting expert and to me.....if you carry, you better know the basic`s of human antomy. Much like people here who test with a .45acp and carry a .22 because it`s easier/lighter/less bothersome to carry. When you carry, you had better know it all. If you don`t train that way, you will not reflex that way and reflex wins the day. Not thinking.


    LTS
  13. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    I guess you kinda lost me Mike, what part do you dissagree with? the fact that most villians today wont be wearing body armor, or the thought that concentrating your fire on areas other than center mass would prove most effective? The reason instructors are trained to teach us to shoot for center mass is not only to stop the badguy, but also because alot of people just cant hit my head from 15 ft away...I saw one girl shoot the freeking dirt in front of her target that was 15 ft away during our CHL class, impressive huh?

    I am positive that most of us here wouldn't have that problem, but face it, most people in that class will fire their little P32 once every four years to re-qualify...They would do good to hit center mass...Which, I admit, in most cases, will put the old boy on the ground.

    Crpdeth
  14. LIKTOSHOOT

    LIKTOSHOOT Advanced Senior Member

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    I know we don`t disagree, but bullet resistant body armor is not the cause of the trajedy, training or lack of is. Like I said, the lower center mass is still center mass and can be hit at every angle. A head is the same size as upper center mass. Much like driving, some have a license, but a driver they will never be---lol


    LTS
  15. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth Active Member

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    Agreed, there are many different angles to look at this scenario from and certainally many have better endings. I wish we all had the time and could afford better training...To you and I, it seems to be interesting, something that should be considered and something we enjoy, Sadly, many others want to breeze through the course and step out into society with only the mininual requirements under their belt.

    God help them.

    Crpdeth
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