Vintage Belgium double barrel identification

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by cdncowboy, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. cdncowboy

    cdncowboy New Member

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    I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. What I know so far is:
    - proof house was Liège (ELG)
    - was made in Belgium
    - 12 gauge, 70mm (2 3/4" shell) chamber
    - says "goverment tested for smokeless powder" on top of barrels
    - nitro proof barrels

    Questions that I have:

    1. When was it made?
    2. It has an "E" in a diamond stamp on side of breech ... what company made it?
    3. It has 25" barrels ... has it been cut down? It has the brass front bead sight and doesn't look like it...
    4. It is in mint shape with no corrosion or scratches and the petina on both the steel and woods is fabulous... what is it's rough current value?
    5. Does it have damascus barrels (laminated steel)?

    I have attached a pic of the gun as well as of the "E" marking.

    Thanks for the help.

    PICT0028.jpg

    PICT0035.jpg
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2010
  2. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus?

    Laminated steel is just another form of Damascus, made without the initial twisting of the rods. It is no stronger than any other built-up barrel.

    It is not "mint" if it has patina, and it does not look mint, though it appears to have been well maintained.

    I can't help with the diamond E, maybe someone else can.

    Jim
  3. cdncowboy

    cdncowboy New Member

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    Hi Jim,
    At this point I am unsure about the barrels. I am no expert and I only said Domascus based on website info I was reading. It may not be the correct term. I am also unsure now about the year as I found conflicting barrel markings and so that is now up in the air. I am attaching the barrel stamping as well in hopes to provide more information to solve the riddle.

    I guess nice patina is what I would call mint. I have always been interested in antiques and my opinion (and what I have researched) is that patina should not be removed from a vintage piece. The oxidation is part of its beauty and value.

    Attached Files:

  4. cdncowboy

    cdncowboy New Member

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    Another pic..

    Attached Files:

  5. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. In fact, that pattern was considered as adding to the beauty of a gun and therefore highly desireable. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition.

    Value? I don't see any collector value; it is a Belgian shotgun of no particular distinction, made by an unknown maker or consortium. In other words, a hunting gun. My value guess would be around $250, retail, but I am more than willing to be educated by anyone with better information.

    Jim
  6. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's
  7. PeteM

    PeteM New Member

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    It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi.
    When it passed proof, it the barrels weighed 1.567 Kgs or 3.45 lbs. If the barrels weigh less than this when you weigh them today, some one has messed with them.
    The barrels have the trade mark of Delcour-Dupont.

    Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's.
    http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm

    [​IMG]
    This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. They are standing outside their factory. The stones in the back ground were used to grind damascus barrels. Their shop continued make damascus until 1938.

    The barrels on your gun appear to be fluid steel. But that really does not matter, whether fluid or damascus they all had to pass proof, which was for less than our current pressures. Also we are talking about a 90 year old gun here, so the stock should not be submitted to heavy stress. You can find suitable ammunition for older shotguns from some one like RST, http://www.rstshells.com

    You can view Belgian proof marks here:
    http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

    You can view Belgian trade marks here:
    http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

    I do not see anything that indicates the maker.
  8. grcsat

    grcsat Member

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    Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks.(most sales were in the 1930s)
    This type of shotgun was sold by both sears and eatons and a host of other stores primarily in Canada. They are actually quite common and usually go for beteen $150 -$200 at auction.They were a good quality shotgun.
    I have one in 12 gage,purched from the Hudson Bay Co. Sorry but there is nothing Damascus about this shotgun. They were made in two grades.Standard and engraved The engraved model has a hunting scene with a dog and pheasant.(crudely engraved) and usualy goes at auction for about $250-$300.
    I do belive the auction prices are lower than they shoud be, but that is the presant market. However there dose seem to be a rising interest in these old shotguns and I do expect to see prices going up.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  9. cdncowboy

    cdncowboy New Member

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    Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech.
  10. Carcajou

    Carcajou New Member

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    I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada.

    Eaton's sold shotguns made by Cooey and Belgium made shotguns under the Eaton name, with this mark.

    SO far as I know, the mark was normally placed on the side of the action, toward the rear stock.
  11. Hammerslagger

    Hammerslagger New Member

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    There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2".

    The foregoing would be indicative of an "improved cylinder" choke constriction. I can not begin to read the choke marks on the other barrel because of the photo quality. I would guess it is likely cylinder (18.4) or "skeet 1" (18.3). Twenty-five inches would be 63.5 cm. I woud guess them to be more like 65 cm or 25.6 inches. If they still weigh 1,567 grams (3 lbs + 7.25 oz) they have not been shortened.

    I am having a hard time reading the date codes above the "S"s with "*"s over them. The "S", "*" indicates an inspector working from 1952 or later. The date code seems to be a cursive Greek letter "Lambda" which makes this gun date to 1954, if I am reading correctly.
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
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