Walther PP

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by Hombre, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. Hombre

    Hombre New Member

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    I Have a Walther PP Zella Mehlis 7,65 together with a box with matching numbers.
    Serial number 165674P. I also have a box with a Walther plug pipe for
    4 mm ammo. I am curious when the gun was made. About value, well, I guess it is a difference between Sweden and the U.S.A.
    Sorry, for the bad pictures but that´s all I could do for now.
    Best regards,
    Hombre

    Attached Files:

  2. Danny

    Danny Member

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    :eek::):)All I can say Hombre, is Wow with a double Wow, Wow. I have been collecting Walthers for over 30 years & have never seen any as nice as yours.
    Lets get to some tech issues first, before I give you a value. From my data bank, your pistol was manufactured in 1938 or early 1939. It was produced for your countrys police dept. That explains the lanyard loop on the bottom.
    The only thing I can not understand is the eagle/n markings. Those markings did not appear on any German firearm until 1940. The only visible explanation I can come up with, is Walther had some of these laying around that were meant for the private purchase & were setting on a shelf with the crown/n markings. They must have removed the c/n & replaced it with the e/n sometime later at the beginning of the war. Then too they may not have been stamped at all. This is really a brain buster on how a prewar PP ended up with that eagle/n?
    Your pistol is almost in a new/unfired look. With the pistol & the other goodies in the box, here in the states, it would bring over 3000.00 & even more to the right colllector. The 4mm kit being also in a new state, with the issued ammo, could & would bring in 1000.00 if not more. In all you may surpase these figures in your country. That weapon really belongs in a museum.
    I hope this info helps ya some? Keep that weapon light oiled and stowed in a safe & ten years you may double the values just mentioned.
    Kindest Regards
    Danny:)
  3. Teejay9

    Teejay9 New Member

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    Jeez, that's a NICE PP, mein Freund. How did YOU get it, and how much did it cost? I'd take Danny's advice and hold on for a while. TJ
  4. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen a 4MM adapter :)
  5. Danny

    Danny Member

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    Hi RJ,
    Yes they exist, but the little buggers R hard to find. The Lugers & P38s had the same kit in 4mm. Just a different length. I guess they wanted to train the men so they would not waste the good stuff. You might be able to kill a rat,but that was it. Good idea, as the Army wasted alot of 45 hardball training us on the 1911A1.
    Best To Ya
    Danny:)
  6. Hombre

    Hombre New Member

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    Thank you very much for your help, Danny. I really appreciate it and I appreciate the other guys input too.
    Glad you like the gun together with accessories but I have to read twice
    about what these things could bring in the U.S.A.
    Wish it could be an easy thing to import and export guns between the U.S.A
    and Sweden because then I should have been selling these things and buy
    a Pennsylvania (Kentucky) rifle instead. :) I have nothing at all against Walther PP pistols but since childhood I have been very interested in American history. Winchester, Marlin and Colt you can find here in Sweden but I must admit that I have never seen an original Kentucky rifle here. It is a dream to own one someday.
    Once again, thank you very much for the information, Danny.
    Sorry, for the delay. Haven´t been home for a couple of days.
    Best regards,
    Hombre:)
  7. Teejay9

    Teejay9 New Member

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    Mr. Hombre, can you own guns in Sweden? I thought that they were banned. TJ
  8. Danny

    Danny Member

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    If thats the case Hombre, meet me somewhere & I will bring you a beautifull 45cal Kentucky rifle. They also have 36cal as well, better yet call Bob Simpson in ILL and he will get the gun here, as he imports and exports. Just find your rifle & let me know? Can U buy bp & caps over there? Also send me one of those beautiful blondes, okay?
    Kind Regards
    Danny:):):)
  9. Hombre

    Hombre New Member

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    Yes, Teejay9, we can own guns in Sweden even if it is not as in your place.
    For myself, I am a hunter and I am collecting Winchester and Marlin lever actions and Colt revolvers. Well, I guess, I can say that I am interested in everything which is "Old Americana". Now I am dreaming of an old original Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle.:) Frankly speaking, I have never seen one here in Sweden.

    Yes, Danny, we can buy bp and caps here. That´s no problem. I can also buy a replica here of a Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle but I want to have an old original one, for my collection. Danny, if we can solve the import and export thing I am very much interested in making business. About the blondes, well, I give you some for free.:D:D:D:D

    Best regards
    Hombre

    bokstefan@msn.com
  10. Teejay9

    Teejay9 New Member

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    I'll take some, too :p:p TJ
  11. Doc O.

    Doc O. New Member

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    I need help from the knowledgeable experts out there.
    I am looking at a Walther PP with serial number 326202 P that has the Walther commercial markings Zella Mehlis (Thur) as well as the eagle over N on slide and ejection port. It may have a waffenampt eagle over 359 on the left rear of trigger guard but it is exceedingly faint. I do not see the AC maker code below the serial number. I am wondering about the year of manufacture. Also, was the AC maker code initiated in late 1944 as I have read elsewhere, such that not all PP's issued by the German Army during WW II had the AC code? Lastly, if the waffenampt is that hard to make out, can I be sure that this PP was official issue by the German army during WW II ?
  12. valbehaved

    valbehaved Member

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    Your gun was made in 1942-1943..(cannot give you a specific year without looking in the book first)
    AC code was indeed a late addition for Walther PP. It is a secret factory code assigned to Walther factory and has nothing to do with whether the gun was procured by the army or other entities.
    Probably 99% of the guns leaving factory during the war years were destined for one of the military/police branches(Army, luftwaffe, SS, etc, etc, etc).
    The remainder were purchased privately by people with military/police/party/etc affiliations.
    Eagle/359 proof indicates army procurement.
    Faint Eagle/359 proof may indicate refinish.
  13. Doc O.

    Doc O. New Member

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    Thank you Val,
    MUCH APPRECIATED!
  14. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    I am willing to be corrected, but this is the way I understand it.

    The German army was the lead procurement agency for small arms for the Wehrmacht. The P.38 was the standard Wehrmacht service pistol, with the old P.08 (Luger) being substitute standard. The army weapons office (HWaA) had an open end contract with Walther for the P.38. The contract guns were marked with the official P.38 designation and the maker's code, "ac" in the case of Walther. The army also allowed Walther to produce, from time to time, pistols designated "Model HP", using the old pre-war designation, for export and commercial sale. These were identical to the then-current P.38 except for the markings. Reportedly, there was a market among German troops for a personal pistol that could be supported by army ordnance (the same as Colt Government Models were prized by American troops when they could get them).

    But at the same time, the army and other services, plus the security agencies, purchased PP's and PPK's from Walther on an "as needed" basis. Those pistols had the normal commercial markings; those purchased by the HWaA had the eagle/359 inspection/acceptance stamp to show they were mililtary property; some other organizations had their own property marks. One volume purchaser was the RZM, the Nazi party "quartermaster", which sold party goods to the faithful, iwth profits going to the party.

    In addition, Walther did a normal commercial and export trade in the small pistols. Jews were prohibited from owning guns (I wonder why) but for "good" Germans and Nazi party members, gun ownership was relatively unrestricted. Those guns, of course, would have no code marking or any German government or Nazi party property marking.

    At some point, probably late 1944, the HWaA contracted with Walther for its entire output of the PP and PPK, mostly the former, since PPK production was very limited at that time. Those were then marked with the "ac" and the WaA eagle, indicating contract guns, not guns purchased from stock. Those went to the armed forces and to other agencies as required.

    Just as an aside, it is very unlikely that those "secret codes" were very secret. Early on, who else but Walther would have been producting P.38 pistols that were designed by Walther and advertised by Walther internationally before the war? In fact the allies cared little about small arms production; they went after "bigger fish" in the way of synthetic oil production, Ruhr dams and the transportation network. It didn't matter how many pistols or cartridges were made, if wrecked rail lines kept them from the fighting front.

    Jim
  15. Doc O.

    Doc O. New Member

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    Thanks Jim, very informative.
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