We are REALLY living History....

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Guest, Mar 3, 2003.

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    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1647
    (9/26/01 8:34:08 am)
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    It's amazing when I watch the news, or specials on TV to see the politicians and journalists struggling to put what's happening today into some kind of perspective...

    We've all heard the comparisons to Pearl Harbor, but I've heard comparisons to everything from Antietam to Iwo Jima, heard Bush paraphrase Yamamoto about 'Awakening the Sleeping Giant" (See Warpigs signature for the quote,) heard Rumsfeld yesterday try to explain to the press why they would NOT be getting true stories or reports while they were happening, by quoting Churchill..."Sometimes the Truth is so precious it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies..." And what's even more exciting if that's the word, is that the press SEEMS to be accepting the seriousness of the situation and their place in it.

    Not only do MOST seem to be still waving the flag and realizing they are AMERICANS, they are qualifying statements with stuff like "Everything in this report has been cleared so we don't jeapordize operations..." and SEEM to now understand what the censorship their fathers and mentors accepted in WWII was FOR.

    Even the History Channel now has a program called "History Center," a cheap knockoff of "SportsCenter"(?) where a panel of historians and jounalists sit around and analyze today's events in the context of history...

    As much as the study of History gets a bad rap from other people as impractical, boring, useless, I think you will see a resurgence in interest, now that people SEE the relevence...

    Even in uncharted territory, you MUST have some sort of previous experience to make sense of it, if not a basic roadmap, or you are totally blind.

    We ALL must study History or we are doomed to repeat it.

    Thank you Georges Santayana.


    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2363
    (9/26/01 8:59:22 am)
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    Yep Polish, it could be a good thing.......but!, I have seen so much mis-information by some of these "Military Experts"; sometimes I have to get up off the floor from laughing so hard. Like when discussing covert special firearms to mention just one. MP-5 choice of the elite and in it`s suppressed form, able to deliver accurate shots out to 300 meters, that way no one would hear it or see it coming......WHAT???????
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 966
    (9/26/01 9:23:52 am)
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    I think that much of this war we won't learn about for many years. Rather than large bombing raids, and masses of troops moving, it will probably a series of small clandestine ops......hit and run raids by Special Forces, Delta, SAS, Seals, Commando, etc.

    We'll probably supply air cover, advisors, etc. to the Northern Alliance, so there'll be some pix of that, but we won't see a TV war as we did in Vietnam or Desert Storm.

    We have a fragile alliance which includes a number of Muslim states that won't want their involvement advertised....and it won't be.

    This will be a very different type of war, requiring patience on the part of the usually impatient American public, used to seeing instant results.

    I'm a "News Junkie" and want to know all that's happening all the time.....but I'll just have be patient enough to realize that we can't broadcast our intentions, or our clandestine successes to the world.

    Hang in there, Dubya, you're doing well so far!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1649
    (9/26/01 11:54:03 am)
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    I think we all have to read between the lines, and listen for info from non-mainstream sources.

    For example, I heard a blurb on a LOCAL station of unconfirmed reports that a 4-man SAS patrol in a mountain pass on the Pakistan-Afghan border had a firefight with Taliban soldiers LAST FRIDAY.

    Probably somebody caught something on the BBC or another foreign source, and it made LOCAL news not national.

    Reading between the lines, you just have to KNOW we have human assets on the ground inside Afghan already...now we hear that there were "low-level" contacts between the "Northern Alliance" and the US even before 9-11-01...

    Then in the last few days we are hearing reports of heavy fighting in the North, the "Alliance" making gains, the Taliban conscripting thousands and shipping troops that were on the Pak border north...this "offensive" did not start "by coincidence" just now.

    There it is. If I had to bet the house, I'd have to say Green Beanie "advisors" were ALREADY working with them, now it's just stepped up. I'd also bet we will NOT hear about it for years.

    The Green Beanie missions in Iraq during Desert Storm were wild and extensive, along with the Delta "Scud Patrols," but it hasn't been until the past 2-3 years the true stories have come out.

    And we STILL even deny the EXISTENCE of Delta...

    These missions are EXACTLY what the SOFs are for, and we can BET that is exactly what GW is using them for.

    And because they will probably be one-sided, the Taliban will not "advertise" when they get kicked around in a firefight, and we sure won't tell either, we don't NEED the hype or propaganda when they are "just doing their jobs."

    Now when Clinton put them unsupported in Somalia to do a job they were NEVER INTENDED to do, and the crap hit the fan, it was NEWS...even if they fought valiantly...you can't hide naked dead troopers being dragged through the streets.

    When we're WINNING, expect to hear NOTHING.
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 672
    (9/26/01 12:05:46 pm)
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    I fear that unless the general public is fed a daily ration of "Rah - Rah" news, (as in WWII), the people will grow weary and impatient with seemingly lack of progress in the effort. This will certainly undermine that effort, just as the loudmouth and belligerent dopeheads during the Vietnam War.

    I question the "sledgehammer against gnats" technique, using B-52's to bomb a ruble heap that houses no one. Small, elite units with laser guidence equipment for a few smart bombs for specific targets, hit and run raids, body snatches, all these make perfectly good sense to me. The use of heavy weapons in support of those reble groups fighting against the Taliban troops also, is logical. I understand the policy may be for the US to supply funds and the Russians to supply armament to those rebels. That's fine, too. The Warthog A-10 wing from Tucson has been deployed and I think this is one gun platform that is highly usable in this situation. It can provide very close ground support for the troops and give the armored/motorized portions of the Taliban forces a real cause for concern, stinger missles and all.

    My ferverent prayer is that we have the fortitude, public and leaders, to stick this thing out until it has run it's successful course. Hopefully, that includes those who plan, finance, hide, shelter, transport, train and otherwise support the creeps that carry out such dastardly activities.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2367
    (9/26/01 12:58:22 pm)
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    Love that warthog, those drivers are great.....slow and deadly. That plane has enough flairs and chaff to confuse anything....stingers too and the ability to take direct fire to the cockpit up to 33 millimeter rounds, fly on one damaged engine and half it`s wings gone....GROUND SUPPORT AT IT`S BEST......and let`s not forget that "tiny" 30mm nose candy.hehehehehe
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1653
    (9/26/01 2:24:17 pm)
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    And supposedly those huge old turbofans are mounted high up on the fuselage like that so it can take one hit from a heat seeker up the pipe, and that engine will seperate from the fuselage with the explosion and the plane can keep flying on one...don't think it's ever been tested, bit I'm sure they had the stinger or SA-7 in mind when they designed it...
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 85
    (9/27/01 1:53:05 am)
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    My understanding is the Warthog's engines are high and seperate to prevent 'fratricide' if one engine is hit - also, the location of the turbofans in conjunction with the boxy tail of the craft makes the engine hot spots VERY difficult for a ground-based heat-seeker (read 'Stinger' or Soviet equiv.) to see / generate a 'lock' on. (no good for air-launched IR weapons, but that's waht the F-15/16 weenies are for).

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 969
    (9/27/01 8:26:16 am)
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    The best source of world news on the net:

    news.bbc.co.uk/

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1663
    (9/27/01 11:34:24 pm)
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    Just heard the USA Today tomorrow is going to carry a report that SOFs were on the ground in Afghanistan two days after the attack...what did I tell you?

    MSNBC had a report on a Warthog squadron, they walked around one and it had Sidewinders on it...AIM9Ls.

    They didn't catch it, but it looks like they carry their OWN Air to Air in their back pocket...they are probably to attack helicopters, BUT when the Brits first used the "all aspect" 9Ls in the Falklands right after they were available, (Ronnie gave them some as a "gift" and didn't tell anybody at the time) the Harrier pilots said with them you could win a dogfight flying a flagpole.

    The other thing I think I saw was all weather targeting radar...in the gulf, they jury rigged a monitor in the cockpit, and used the IR camera in the nose of a "smart bomb" they didn't drop to operate at night and in the sandstorms...American Ingenuity at it's best...they really are (Were?) pretty unsophisticated compared to other AC, but actually killed more Iraqi armor than any other weapon.
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2387
    (9/28/01 7:12:56 am)
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    Polish, yep we ain`t to smart are we......kinda like cutting up surplus 18" deck guns and making pipe-bombs to bust bunkers with, ya think they contacted BAFT?????? FIRST!!!!
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1670
    (9/28/01 9:45:53 am)
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    I saw a picture about twenty years ago when we were bringing some Iowas out of mothballs of a field somewhere where 16" gun replacement barrel liners were stacked up after WWII, piled up like logs.

    We had something like enough to replace every liner on every 16" gun on every BB in commission at the end of the war after EVERY cruise for like a 100 years....

    Have to use them for SOMETHING.

    Too bad Afghanistan isn't closer to the coast, I'd like to see the Whiskey or the Joisey back in service...nothing got the Hezbollah's attention in Beirut or Iraqis along the coast of Kuwait better than a fire mission from an Iowa...something about 9 incoming screaming Volkswagens you just KNOW are gonna hit close makes you lose bowel control...
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2393
    (9/28/01 9:56:29 am)
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    Yep, nothing like whistling whilst hunkerin down for the morning rain of small cars, that go POW!

    Like that firecontrol drill too, loosen all bolts before firing, allowing the ship to flex.....man those movies of Jap island blasting all guns at once from a broadside, that is truly parting of the sea...................
    America, we are the symbol of Freedom and Liberty......

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1674
    (9/28/01 7:46:15 pm)
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    I think somewhere in this forum way back we got into a discussion about BBs and somebody posted a first-hand account from Vietnam, where they called for support, nothing was available, then they heard the New Jersey answer, and they gave the coordinates then in come the freight cars and the whole hillside disappeared - firefight over! And they were like 25 miles from the coast.

    I haveta go find it, it was a great story.
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1676
    (9/28/01 9:07:11 pm)
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    Found it! And the post I cited was posted by Ron, so I'll put it back up in his memory...he'd like that.
    I'm so PROUD to be an AMERICAN...
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