weaver or isoseles??? and why

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by gunlearner, May 31, 2007.

  1. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

    Feb 14, 2007
    hello to all.
    to all my experienced friends that have had experience with weapons (police officers, swat, marines, navy, rangers, instructors etc.) which stancedo you think is more confortable, more effective to use and at the moment of truth is more likely to use. please explain the reasons why and please let make a great debate
    i do not give my opinion since my experience is limeted however i think that each person should make their own stance.

    take care

    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  2. Jay

    Jay Active Member

    Mar 26, 2003
    Well, I'm personally more comfortable in a weaver stance. I just feel more balanced. It does open up the possibility of more organ damage is I got hit, but at the same time I pose a bit less of a target. Just my 5 cents worth.

  3. Me personally I practice firing 5 shots in rapid sucesion as I am quickly retreating. Even if you shoot a charging man he still can fall or lunge at you and if he has a knife sticking straight out you can still get killed.

    Basically picture. Drawing you weapon and taking five steps backwards very quickly with each step you make firing a shot

    With a long gun I practice firing 3 shots very quickly getting down to a prone position and popping of 2 more rounds once I am prone
  4. I normally practice both stances, gun, but for whatever reason I personally tend to shoot more accurately using the Weaver, or a modification of it. I've found, though, that it is usually easier to teach a new shooter accurate shooting if the isosceles is introduced first.
  5. patrol

    patrol Member

    May 19, 2007
    The weaver stance is a good basic platform stance similar to a fighting stance and you have the advantage of that straight line from muzzle down your arm to your shoulder which typically is a more accurate shooting position, However, in shooting and having to move especially side to side or latteral the isoseles is a much better stance to adjust your feet if you have to shoot and scoot. Realistically if someone is shooting at you learning the isoseles method is more practical as far as "speed" or economy of movement overall. Thats why in L.E. range sessions we do more training now at our department using isoseles for tactical shooting. But for scores on a stationary target the weaver is hard to beat. If you have to stick to one stance go with the isoseles if not practice both.:cool:
  6. Ursus

    Ursus Active Member

  7. standles

    standles New Member

    Apr 6, 2007
  8. polishshooter

    polishshooter Well-Known Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    From my IPSC and Action Pistol days I learned the answer....:cool:


    Interestingly, while EVERYBODY in IPSC back then seemed to favor the Weaver, I basically tried it when I started, (Jeff Cooper was my HERO) then drifted "naturally" back to the Isoceles, and for a while was about the only one using it as my main stance...(except when I was using a barricade, then the Weaver seemed to be better....)

    ...until I started shooting moving targets in Action Pistol, then EVERYBODY started using Isoceles just about exclusively. Swinging and hitting a laterally moving target seems naturally "easier" than with a Weaver. Shooting MORE than three targets (like the six plates) seemed easier with it too... Get a firm footing facing the center of of the range, then swing through right to left then left to right, without moving your feet, 6 rounds in the approximately 10 seconds at a target moving 6 feet/second through the 60 feet(which incidentally teaches you a LOT about lead....)with a Weaver you will only be in the "optimum" stance for MOSTof the time the target is visible. while just pivoting your hips can cover the whole range with an isoceles comfortably.

    But I discovered, almost on my own as one of those "epiphany" moments, during a goofy practice drill, (and then found out from a Police Instructor friend of mine that used to travel with Massad Ayoob that what I discovered was NOT "new" at all...)

    Try this....Stand in the Isocelese, aiming at a target directly in front of you, THEN try to engage a target 90 degrees to your left...QUICKLY, withour moving your feet. Guess what? You are in a PERFECT Weaver! IF your hips are supple, (and you are YOUNG:p ) you can ALMOST engage targets directly to your REAR swinging to the left (for a right handed shooter) with the same Weaver!

    Then swing the other way, QUICKLY, through the perfect Isocelese, engaging targets to the front, and swing through, and to almost 100 or more degrees to your RIGHT, you can engage targets, again without moving your feet, with what is actually a REVERSE Weaver...with the LEFT arm almost as straight as a rifle stock and the RIGHT bent....with your head down on the left arm using your right eye just like old Mr.s Weaver and Cooper intended....

    SOOOoooo....learn the Isosceles, and also practice the Weaver, and you can QUICKLY and accurately cover almost (but not quite) 270-300 degrees around (OK 200-250 or so to us stiff "getting old" farts) if you are surprised without moving your already acquired FIRM footing ....

    What I do to this day is practice BOTH, each time I shoot about any handgun I START with a slowfire group Isoceles, then I do ANOTHER with Weaver...then if I do more, I do the standard drills varying with both...

    But what is strange, when I was younger, I could shoot better groups with the Isocelese, but it seems as I get older, the "push-pull" Weaver does better for me..I seem to "wobble" more with an Isocelese the more I try to shoot a slow group....

    There will be times when one or the other will be better for the specific situation, so be proficient with BOTH, and you will NATURALLY assume the "better" one in the proper situation without thinking about it....
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2007
  9. Just to reinforce a point already made....

    In my job we train on a principle worded such as "Terrain dictates technique". This principle applies to a lot of stuff and includes shooting positions with carbine and sidearms.......

    For CQB, I've always stuck with isoseles when no cover is present. The reason...our bodyarmor will stop 7.62 NATO from front or back, so it makes sense to put the thickest armor towards the threat. Aside from armor...you still want to avoid a sideways penetration of your chest cavity in a gunfight or both your lungs risk being punctured by projectiles etc etc.

    When there is cover a weaver stance allows you to shoot around cover, thus angle of body position in relation to threat is dicted by the addition sheilding of cover.

    Long story short, from my experience, train to use both stances and other so as to fight proficiently in all terrain.

    Train as you will fight...because you will fight as you have trained.......
  10. gunlearner

    gunlearner New Member

    Feb 14, 2007
    something a little different!!! i don't know if you saw where i told about the new law in ecuador. (new law states that you can only carry one mag with you and it has to be 10 rounds total) having this new fact how do i train, i have to be twice more effective due to the fact that the majority of attacks in this area are with a total usually of two cars with 8 people that would make me very good at double tapping and not with a margin of two errors
    (guess am gonna train like there is no tomorow.
    take care my friends and if you have any imput on how to train with limited ammo please let me know!!!!
  11. M383
  12. polishshooter

    polishshooter Well-Known Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Gunlearn, if I take it correctly that you are from Ecuador, Welcome to the "TFF Foreign Legion!" We are proud to have distinguished members from El Salvador, Brasil, the Phillippines, Australia, Canada, Eastern Europe, just about everywhere! We love 'em all, and they teach us "Norte Americanos" a lot too!

    Having said that, being limited to 10 rounds, I HOPE you can carry "real" calibers, not like some latin American countries that limit civilian use to "non-military" (i.e., NOT .45 ACP) ones.

    What caliber are you using?

    If LESS than, maybe a .40 S&W, the only advice I would say is stick to something with good penetration, like FMJs if there are car bodies in the way, and PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE "head shots....." until you can consistantly hit them at about 7 yds or less QUICKLY from a draw, and up to 10-15 yds, with a GOOD gun and technique maybe even 25yds with a little, (VERY little!) more time....

    But if you are LIMITED in rounds, then opt for the LARGEST caliber you can own in an autoloader.

    Just another thought...

    Does that stupid law apply to revolvers too? Or are they just trying to "discourage' autoloaders? And can you carry LOOSE spare ammo, if only "one mag", can you maybe carry a revolver speedloader, or maybe a drop pouch or "speed strip?"

    If there's a way around it with a revolver, and they let you carry more LOOSE rounds, you MIGHT be better off with a .357 mag, because even loose rounds would load in a revolver slowly, but MUCH faster and easier than reloading your one single auto mag!

    Plus your scenario dealing with cars, that was the claim to fame for the .357 in it's heyday here as an LEO gun, in fact why a model was NAMED the "Highway Patrolman...."...better penetration of car bodies!

    And finally, while I would NEVER advocate doing anything illegal:cool: , we have an old saying here:

    "It's better to be tried by 12 (a jury) than carried by 6. (pallbearers at your funeral.)

    Is there a way you could "hide' an extra mag in your back pocket next to your wallet, or in your sock or somewhere "just in case?" It might be worth the risk if you are talking life or death from the 'bad guys," who by definition obviously don't care about any law!

    Last edited: Jun 5, 2007
  13. Smoky14

    Smoky14 Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Nowhere NM
    With all respect to those who have commented; when the stuff hits the fan the "stance" goes out the window, find cover and shoot from behind the cover "stance" be what ever will cover your body and allow the "tactical" advantage. Just had to use the word,tactical, sounds so ninja like.

    Just the opinion of a guy who wants to be here to parctice my stance.
    Smoky the opinionated
  14. I agree with all you said except the part about "stance goes out the window". It is a true statement if the shooter has not trained until stance becomes a conditioned response.

    If you do something the same way every in a given situation, you will do exactly that in the same situation under stress.

    One pet peeve I use as an example often is a shooter looking at his/her weapon during reload during training. There is no doubt that person will be looking at their weapon during reload in a fight with no eyes on the threat and lose valuable time searching for a threat that moved 3 seconds ago.

    Another example is remaining standing during reload during training. It's another conditioned response. No doubt the person will not assume a knealing position fully behind cover with that dry weapon........ The list goes on....but it's the small things that seperate a proficient fighter from another guy that bought a gun....

    Proper stances is something that if conditioned properly can give you an advantage...consistency per circumstance is key to conditioning.
  15. Smoky14

    Smoky14 Member

    Nov 23, 2001
    Nowhere NM
    Delta: Agree with the "you'll fight the way you train". My "stance" is usually prone/kneeling/foxhole/concrete barrier what ever I can find while moving. I de-briefed a guy shot using the weaver when his car was right there for cover. He always practiced his stance and when it hit the fan he entered his stance just like he trained.
    I guess we should avoid gun fights- best stance, and use long guns second best stance. Fighting is dirty business.
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