What do you think?

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by Hardballer, Sep 26, 2009.

?

Who here believes. . .

Poll closed Oct 1, 2009.
  1. electing new politicians will change things for the better?

    15 vote(s)
    27.8%
  2. supporting Obama will change things for the better?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. doing nothing will change things for the better?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. starting over? (you know what I mean)

    39 vote(s)
    72.2%
  1. Hardballer

    Hardballer New Member

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    So who here really believes that electing someone else or voting for so and so is going to change things in this government.
  2. cycloneman

    cycloneman Well-Known Member

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    well i know how you voted. :D:D

    We will never see eye to eye with all the nut jobs out there. You just got to let them have a piece of land so they can go set on there butts and wait for money and food to fall out of the sky. A new mason dixon line. it's the only way i think.
    slowly they will take more and more of your freedoms away and even one day you right to own property. as long as they do it slowly it seems to be ok with everyone. where is that hot button that says back off MF?
  3. Haligan

    Haligan Well-Known Member

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  4. 45nut

    45nut Active Member

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    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government.

    Can't say it any better than our Founding Father's did. Trouble is, the sheeple will not go for massive change and that is what we need. We need to throw all incumbents out and start over with term limits. 1 term in the senate and 2 in the house. Do away with ACORN and end all the entitlements we can.
  5. SaddleSarge

    SaddleSarge New Member

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    Alright, here's a question and it coincides with a lot of thought I've been doing on the term/label, "anti-governemnt." (Which I will do a separate post on later so as not to hi-jack this thread.)

    If this system of government was to be abolished and start over, what would be conceived as a better form of government than that of what we consider to have been the greatest governmental formation as that which started with that document in 1776?

    So are we really talking about getting rid of the U.S. Constituion and creating a new form of government or we talking about making our politicians (and electing the same) govern themselves as we govern ourselves by that great document?

    When you speak of abolishing it, it's gone and you are starting over with a fresh, blank piece of paper. How would you fill it in?

    (P.S.: This is not directed at anyone or any one group of opinions. I am directing this at the "thought and idea" on a subject matter that we all believe in to one extent or another on both sides of the coin.)
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  6. Hardballer

    Hardballer New Member

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    My view in starting over is to embrace the Constitution as it stands and to perhaps make it iron clad and not a living\changing document subject to judicial interpretation. I would further put term limits in place for any and all elected servants. Period.

    Iron clad rules pertaining to lobbyists, disbursements, standing armies, etc. would take some wrangling. Ultimately, the power of the political elite would have to be broken and forever guarded and kept in the peoples hands.

    If anyone looks at politics or politicians in the world today, and thinks that voting in a new crop of stinkin, lyin, thieves will change things for the average guy, they have another thing coming.
  7. SaddleSarge

    SaddleSarge New Member

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    I agree Hardballer to an extent.... I disagree about the lyin, stinkin', theives. I say that because it is up to folks like you, me, folks on this board to take an active part in their country and become that temporary politician like in the founding days when finished with their appointment, would go back to their businesses and farms.

    For what does it take (or should it take) for one to run for office? A love of country, a love of serving their constituents, a profound respect and belief in and understanding in and around the constitution, honesty, integrity, faith? In my mind's eye, if you have these things, you're qualified.

    Therefore, why don't more of us with life experience and the above listed run for office? For those listed items, are the only things needed to run for office in my opinion.

    If we're going to take it back, 'we the people' need to take and engage into a more active roll.
  8. Bobitis

    Bobitis Guest

    I chose starting over.
    Although electing new politicians can be construed as starting over, I don't think that's going to help.

    Throw them ALL out. Good, bad, or indifferent. ALL of them.
    Make the lobbyists and special interest groups work for their perks.
    We should have a ONE term limit. No exceptions.
    You either want to help your country or you don't.
    More than one term is conducive to corruption.

    YMMV
  9. 22WRF

    22WRF Well-Known Member

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  10. oldogy

    oldogy New Member

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    Throw out all the politicians at national level. Let the Constitution as amended stand. God help us if we were to have a Constitutional convention now with all the over educated, life ignorant trash running the government.
    Term limits mandatory. New statesmen in Washington.
    Single item legislation, no amendments, riders, earmarks.
    Lobbyist should be illegal. Run them all out.
    oldogy
  11. SaddleSarge

    SaddleSarge New Member

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    HA!!! 22WRF,

    Me thinks we be thinkin' along the same lines!!!

    Attached Files:

  12. pickenup

    pickenup Active Member

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    Voting.....or the lack of it (apathy) is what has gotten us INTO this mess. Considering the general public, realistically there is NO WAY that voting is going to get us out of it.

    Start over.
    Adhere to the constitution we have, it's a good one.
    Term limits.
    Single issue bills.

    No "paid for life" once you leave office.
    No "free medical" once you leave office.
    etc.
  13. Hardballer

    Hardballer New Member

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    I don't disagree with your Ideal here but exactly how do we un-wind all of the special interests. Good-ole-boys network, cash cows, laws and legalese in place to keep guys like you out. How are you going to raise the huge amount of cash necessary to compete these days. I mean really. Further, how do you un-wind all of the pork, the crap, the money for nuthin'?

    Try and work from the inside? I don't think so. Do you have any idea how deep the rabbit hole goes? How tangled this web is? The scale is mind boggling. I'd wager that no-one is immune either.

    So you and Bill Bob and Mary Margaret get elected this time. OK, now six years later Sam, Fred and Sally Jo get elected but Bill Bob gets booted and Mary Margaret is wooed by the dark side. So now it's just you, Sam, Fred and Sally Jo. Twelve years later, Sally Jo finds out that a little power is good and a lot of power is better. Think Peloser here.

    Fred quits. And Sam goes which ever way the wind blows. So now, it's you again. Gillian gets elected along with you and Sam and now eighteen years later it's you, Sam and Gillian. Things haven't changed much and you're going to retire along with Sam. Gillian feels all alone but lunches often with Sally jo.

    Who knows, maybe in 24 years, it'll be all better and someone else can start over to try to change things. 50 to a hundred years later we might actually have changed a law or held pork to to or three thousand additions to bills.

    Or we use an alternative method.



    I don't mean to sound all down and out here but will somebody please explain to me just how we fix what was wrong in the first place and then fix what Obysmal and Peloser have done to us. I mean by working with the system. By the election process. How do we stop the madness. Corruption. Insanity. I mean, come on, Acorn, aka weather underground/black panthers,

    And


    Vice President of the United States
    Joseph R. Biden

    *
    Department of State
    Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton

    *
    Department of the Treasury
    Secretary Timothy F.*Geithner

    *
    Department of Defense
    Secretary Robert M. Gates

    *
    Department of Justice
    Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr.

    *
    Department of the Interior
    Secretary Kenneth L.*Salazar

    *
    Department of Agriculture
    Secretary Thomas J.*Vilsack

    *
    Department of Commerce
    Secretary Gary F. Locke

    *
    Department of Labor
    Secretary Hilda L. Solis

    *
    Department of Health and Human Services
    Secretary Kathleen Sebelius

    *
    Department of Housing and Urban Development
    Secretary Shaun L.S.*Donovan

    *
    Department of Transportation
    Secretary Raymond L.*LaHood

    *
    Department of Energy
    Secretary*Steven Chu

    *
    Department of Education
    Secretary Arne Duncan

    *
    Department of Veterans Affairs
    Secretary Eric K. Shinseki

    *
    Department of Homeland Security
    Secretary Janet A.*Napolitano



    The following positions have the status of Cabinet-rank:
    *
    Council of Economic Advisers
    Chair Christina*Romer

    *
    Environmental Protection Agency
    Administrator Lisa P. Jackson

    *
    Office of Management & Budget
    Director Peter R. Orszag

    *
    United States Trade Representative
    Ambassador Ronald Kirk

    *
    United States Ambassador to the United Nations
    Ambassador Susan Rice

    *
    White House Chief of Staff
    Rahm I. Emanuel*



    Not to mention the Supreme Court Justice he just appointed and the rest he will have the opportunity to appoint. Oh, and don't let me forget about the 40 or so Czars he's appointed. After you've explained just how the un-do feature works for all of this, I'm with you all the way.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2009
  14. VegasTech702

    VegasTech702 New Member

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    well, a majority seems to believe starting over to be the best choice... Interesting. I guess when things get this corrupt and ridiculous it takes more effort than just casting a vote with the "electoral" system... :(
  15. Hardballer

    Hardballer New Member

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    Ya know, I'm not really loving the idea of a do over but no one, anywhere, has come up with a way to fix what we have now without a do over. How do you root it out? How do you stop the special interests. I not just the ones you can see but the ones you can't see. The back room club.

    This government could best be described as a maze. . . . . with no way out.

    The illicit dealings and under the table payoffs etc. are just the tip of the iceberg. The military/industrial complex/bankers/rigged markets (don't even tell me you didn't know) cash cows, pork barrel, pay raises (self increased), retirement, bonuses, speaking engagements, book deals (guess I can't begrudge them those last two.)etc.

    The sad truth is that in all my posts on this thread, I have not even yet scratched the surface of all the twists and turns and under handed, under the table dealings going on in Senate, Congress and in the Oval Office.

    When do you people wake up to reality? Drink some coffee. The Koolaid is just no good for you. Why do you think the Framers of the Constitution wrote the things they did back then? Why do you think they were worried? They knew the nature of man. They knew they would have to include a reset button.

    Just as then, these quotes apply to now.


    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.
    Thomas Jefferson

    I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
    Thomas Jefferson

    Never spend your money before you have it.
    Thomas Jefferson

    In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
    Thomas Jefferson

    The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.
    Thomas Jefferson

    I have the consolation of having added nothing to my private fortune during my public service, and of retiring with hands clean as they are empty. Letter to Count Diodati, 1807
    Thomas Jefferson

    We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.
    Thomas Jefferson

    If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it. Letter to James Lewis, Jr., May 9, 1798
    Thomas Jefferson,

    Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or ever will do good.
    John Adams

    The issue today is the same as it has been throughout all history, whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite. Thomas Jefferson

    [We should be] determined... to sever ourselves from the union we so much value rather than give up the rights of self-government... in which alone we see liberty, safety and happiness.
    Thomas Jefferson

    And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press,* or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless necessary for the defense of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of grievances; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.
    Samuel Adams

    You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments: rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the universe.
    John Adams

    Individual liberty is individual power, and as the power of a community is a mass compounded of individual powers, the nation which enjoys the most freedom must necessarily be in proportion to its numbers the most powerful nation.
    John Adams

    The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations ... This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution.
    John Adams

    The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men.
    Samuel Adams

    Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it.
    John Adams


    They are right!

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