What's Your Training?

Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by kilogulf59, May 12, 2008.

  1. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    What is your H2H training background and how do you feel it fits in with your expectations?

    My background includes training in Modern Arnis and Miyama Ryu Jujutsu and some WWII H2H. I feel it was extremely realistic and practical. However, I was lucky in that I had good instructors and never attended a "belt-factory" dojo.

    Personally, I feel that one should do some research before you attend a class. What do you want to learn? What is the instructor's perspective?

    They'll all take your money and teach you but what is the quality of it?

    I think an exchange of thoughts and perspectives on this would be interesting and much enlightening.
  2. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    I started out, my first formal training, on the old Army combatives system. It was alot like Marine LINE combatives in some ways...I'd say though the Army's could be traced directly back to WW2. Anyone who went through it back in the 90's will most likely remember "Check and Lift! Check...Lift!"

    I found boxing at my first unit and followed that up for a long time.

    Then in the late 90's MAC finally started becoming Army-wide...starting with elite units then kinda spreading around with programs brought by multi-level certified guys and commanders who wanted the newest training available. Back then it was called UAC.

    I've seen so many MAC programs they're a blur. One unit I was in that was our PT. We stayed in shape by bouting every day. We'd go to muscle failure before every bout so that we'd be forced to fight while exhausted. Anyway it's a good program overall because it teaches a Soldier who is in SHTF and for whatever reason weaponless to quickly take down/cripple/kill a close threat so he can then get himself collected and drive on. MAC goes all the way from unarmed clinching to short stick, edged weapons etc etc.

    When I was hard charging to where I thought I wanted to be in my career I ended up around alot of units with home grown unarmed combatives programs. Call it mixed martial arts. Those are normally geared to their mission essential task list, i.e. what they must get done. But I got exposure to some cool things I plan to never ever use. I did training once where most of it was in 5ft water...the reason being to learn balance...when you strike in water, or kick or whatever, the resistance will never fail to show if you are balanced...over time you learn to become very stable and then you can correctly execute.

    As far as classes, I've been sent to plenty schools to get the job I wanted(thought I wanted?). Many that involved non-firearm CQB were geared toward edge weapons etc. I even took saber fencing. I have to say I probably disregarded 60% of what I learned to pass...I went back to what I was first taught; which is a pyramid literally and symbolically with a six inch dagger at the top and that's all I ever care to know.

    My first VIP protection detail got me sent to bodyguard school. They managed to teach alot of weapon retention and weapon disarm techniques, and ofcourse takedown/submission techniques along the line of LE. Unarmed combatives flows right into nonlethal weapons at certain levels...in other words if you know one you should know the other....they made me a believer in that.

    I've worked in multinational units/jobs on and off and got exposure to some different fighting doctrines/disciplines. Not gonna claim to have learned enough to want to try in a bout. I guess all Soldiers are the same in that if they live together they'll eventually want to teach strangers their ways...unfortunantely not everyone is a good teacher.

    I know I missed some points here but I'm starting to write a book.

    To answer the other half of your questions...I always entered training hoping and expecting to either learn enough to reteach the information to my peers or obtain further skills to stay alive to perform my job. As a civilian though I'd think one would go to a class expecting to become proficient in a discipline that will get them out of danger very fast.

    One of the best things I ever heard that changed how I think, I heard when I was 19 years old. "If there is anyone in here who anything about a fair fight doesn't just piss you off...you should go back to your sponsor unit now."
  3. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    Delta,

    That is quite an extensive background, you should be teaching the classes.

    It seems that much of your training is in area specialties, or am I getting the wrong impression? Mind you, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. On the contrary, I feel working on one area of training or even one technique is fantastic. That is a great way to get the subject matter down pat.

    Moreover, I feel many people try to learn it all. It is much better to know a few (useful) techniques, very well, than have some knowledge of many, which equates to a whole lot of nothing.
    Last edited: May 13, 2008
  4. graehaven

    graehaven Active Member

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    I'd love to take some courses. There's a school around here that teaches H2H stuff that I will probably look into. Also, I'd like to look into Krav Maga (sp?), the Israeli style of H2H stuff.

    My son just got his black belt in Tae Kwon Do, which is great, but, I want something a little more simplified, easy/quick to learn, and more lethal (if necessary).
  5. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Kilo, I do teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to recruits and ref MAC-1 bouts. That's our current program for new Soldiers. Ours is a mix of Jiu-Jitsu and Judo. We train them to within 1 step below actual level 1 certification (We don't hit them with 16oz gloves and make them achieve a standing clinch...certification requires a student to do that to 3 instructors and the environment where we train cannot justify the injuries that result from that drill at their stage of training.)

    Area specialties...yeah I think that's pretty accurate. The skillset needed to work as a personal security officer (PSO) is totally different than the skillset needed to work in a group assigned to initially seize a hostile airport and expand an air-head. A PSO is expected to capture a threat if possible (intel) instead of killing (based on escalation of force/proper force response of course). Working on the vanguard of an assualt element means up-close and personal with people trying to kill you and if you round a corner and get seperated from your carbine you need to hurt the guy in your face very fast and very severely...your hands happen to be 2 weapons always within reach, even if you just did get knocked silly in a dark hallway. But paralizing a threat because you put his head in a triangle or something, while doing PSO duty, might slightly embarrass your agency ya know. That along what you mean by area specialties?

    Another thing demonstrated to us as PSO's was that handguns simply don't always stop a threat. There just are men who can absorb 3-5 rounds of .45acp in the chest and still maim or kill you before they expire. (Headshots on a moving man are extremely hard.) A handgun is damn hard to use while recovering from the shock-pause of realizing you're probably going to get seriously hurt...this is the one time you'll limp-wrist your state-of-the-art $950 pistol and jam. Someone serious about protecting themself should have a plan for bodily dropping the threat to the concrete and dislocating his joints before he does unto thee first (take his weapon if multiple threats). That's an area specialty in itself....but where training like Krav Maga that graehaven mentioned has merit...the doctrine is to fight continuously no matter what, transitioning from weapon to hands/feet comes with instinct after being indoctrinated by Krav Maga.
  6. graehaven

    graehaven Active Member

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    Ok, so, Delta, for someone like me with no military background, no self H2H self defense training whatsoever....do i pursue Krav Maga, or something else entirely?

    thanks for all the info, and for your service.
  7. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    No problem man.


    So training wise you're a clean slate.

    I assume your goal is to disable an attacker because you're (1) unarmed or (2) weapon failed. I also assume you want to get away from the fight as soon as you can end it and retreat to safety.

    Do you feel you are physically conditioned...as in good shape endurance wise? Not necessarily strong, but able to continuously exert strenuous drills?

    Take that into consideration because say you want to learn Judo, the goal is to throw the other guy down...but if you want to become proficient at the ground fighting you will have to make him submit...in training you do this over and over and it is pretty demanding. For Ju Jitsu (or jujutsu) you may learn ground fighting very extensively before you even start training on dropping a bad guy. It's not uncommon for an instructor to make you start bouts already on the ground on your knees. You need good endurance to spend a straight couple hours rotating opponents in bouts and effectively train at 100%.

    If you are not in shape don't let that hold you back...if you get addicted to what you're learning...the grappling will get you in shape better than a treadmill.


    Aside from that all I can offer is this...sorry if over-simplified...

    Krav Maga is very aggressive and teaches you to keep fighting no matter what. It teaches you to transition from weapon to hands, to improvise your environment into weapons, and how to create your own escape. It uses natural strikes you already probably know, but you apply them in violent attacks that an attacker wouldn't be prepared for.

    Aikido is defensive. What you do is based on how you're attacked. You'll learn how to throw an attacker or lock his joint in a way he will submit.

    Judo is more offensive and teaches you to drop an attacker and if necessary force him to submit on the ground.

    Ju Jitsu is ground fighting. You can actually lay down or sit down and fight a standing man.

    Sambo is the Russian version of US Army MAC. It has a civilian version traced directly back to its military origin for self-defense.


    Which is right for your needs?

    If I had to have 1 discipline, it would be Ju Jitsu. Simply because 95% of anyone fights with strikes/kicks and Ju Jitsu techniques overcome that every time. You clinch the threat, throw it, dislocate a major joint or blood-choke them out...a skilled fighter against a non-skilled fighter walks away in under 10 seconds.
  8. Vladimir

    Vladimir New Member

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    "Always bet on black!"

    That's my H2H training. Wesley Snipes, Jackie Chan, Bruce Willis, and other such movie stars. If I could add a couple bar fights to my resume I'd probably qualify for "White Trash Ass Kickery Style" or such.

    I don't care how much karate you know, you move your Brazillian monkey style against me and I think my USP will win hands down. :D (Anyone catch my King of the Hill reference there?)

    Apparently people also wouldn't want to fight me, does that count? Going back to my "Safeway Scenario" my dad says a court wouldn't accept any excuse for me not getting involved in a scuffle, and all this time I thought I was just fat. But apparently I am menacing too. :D
  9. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    The greatest victory is to defeat your enemy without fighting…

    Obviously your system must work… ;)
  10. graehaven

    graehaven Active Member

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    Thanks! Yes, I believe I can handle the training. I'm 38, relatively ok shape, relatively strong. Probably not where I should be in the endurance area, but few are, if they're not regularly involved in that type of exercise.

    I do want to be able to disable with/without weapon. It's a good, practical skill to have. I think such knowledge also gives a certain heightened awareness, to avoid such conflict altogether as well. Never look for a fight. Always avoid. But if you have to fight, knowing some skills is a must.

    I will have to look into the Ju jitsu, see if there's any available around here. Sounds demanding, but worth it.
  11. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    Of the so-called traditional arts, Jujutsu is excellent and very adaptable. Much will depend upon the focus of the instructors and students however ultimately it is up to you.

    If available, in your area, Miyama Ryu Jujutsu is a first-rate style and I am not saying that simply because I studied it. It is very street combat oriented and we had one class of students who were all police officers. The techniques emphasized were based upon their specific needs.

    A bit of advice (and/or opinion) if I may, the basics are everything. Footwork, timing, making a fist, falling, the entire “how to” stuff, et al. That is where it is all at. All the high level, advanced techniques are a conglomeration of the basics, for the most part. Furthermore, generally the majority of what one will actually use, outside of the ring, is taught in the first few ranks, at least this has been my experience.
  12. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    This is a critical point. A fighter without a solid well reinforced foundation is like a house leaned together without nails.
  13. graehaven

    graehaven Active Member

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    Makes sense. Fundamentals are really important. I will, of course, look for a school with a good track record, recommendations etc.

    thanks guys.
  14. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    I have no military experience, and I really think a good portion of the training I have done works against me in a lot of ways.

    For one thing, I grew up in a wrestling house (take him down, put him on his back). All four of my brothers wrestled (two still do), and we had a wrestling mat in the basement of the house growing up.
    Wrestling gets you in great shape, but it's a pretty impractical fighting style. It's a pretty good starting place, especially the balance and leverage stuff, but it leaves you open to almost any striking attack. It also is essentially useless against multiple aggressors.

    I've done just the slightest bit of MMA training (as the practice dummy for an 18 year old brother who was training for a cage fight), but not much.

    If the fights I've gotten into are any indication, I'm above average for the untrained, but I need to keep learning. Hopefully this summer I'll get more time to train with the LEO who was teaching the MMA stuff (he teaches high schoolers--partially to give them something to do, partially to keep himself sharp and in shape, but mostly just because he likes hanging out with the guys).
  15. kilogulf59

    kilogulf59 Former Guest

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    Josh,

    It sounds that you have a decent background for starters. Granted that most western wrestling styles are single opponent based. However, you’ll be versed in grappling, takedowns, and falling.

    Have you considered a good Judo school? Do not underestimate Judo, especially if it is taught with all the techniques included. To many schools just teach the sport or Olympic Judo versions, nonetheless there is much more to Judo than that.

    Many western Combatives or H2H programs are based in Judo, Jujutsu, Boxing and Wrestling. Used and combined correctly they can be devastating and simple to learn and retain.
  16. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Wanted to share a different opinion.

    "Wrestling" is kind of a blanket word that can mean ground fighting or ground work, so I don't know if you do or don't have a certain discipline in mind.

    But say Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, where dispatching your enemy occurs 99% on the ground....is devastatingly effective against an enemy trying to strike you. An opponent not proficient at ground fighting is a very easy victory for a Jiu-Jitsu fighter; both in taking down and putting in a crippling lock or choke.

    Multiple aggressors........what fighting style can you truely engage more than one threat at a time?

    This is a fact....you can punch and kick an enemy until you turn blue (If you don't break your own wrist or ankle first!!), and he may still be standing to attack you again, but...

    five seconds with your enemy in a straight arm bar and he will not be using that arm again for a long time....

    five seconds with your enemy's head trapped in your lower traingle can leave him dead if you wish.....

    and that is a pretty fast window to move to defend/attack your next threat.
  17. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    Folk style competition wrestling (like the kids in your local high school or NCAA wrestling teams). There are many times when you are in "good position" in a wrestling match that are a very BAD position in a fight. I understand this, but years of drilling cause me to react instinctively in a way that could get me into trouble. That was my only point with saying that is is rather impractical.

    I don't know, but folk-style wrestling certainly isn't it! Becoming tightly engaged with one threat severely limits mobility, so you're screwed. And it doesn't offer anything to disable an opponent or eliminate a threat. He doesn't get hurt, so if you let him go, you're right back where you started.

    I definitely agree with you on all that. I've learned a few rather basic submission/crippling holds, and my grappling experience from wrestling has made picking those up and using them rather easy. And I'm excited to learn more.
  18. delta13soultaker

    delta13soultaker New Member

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    Ah ok. I kinda suspected you may of been talking about sport wrestling. And absolutely, it isn't practical for much unless you have a ref to score or judges to adjudicate, but like you said wrestling puts you very close to other ground fighting styles....some things are redundant; borrowed from other styles anyway and slightly changed for sport and vice versa.

    Sport wrestling is to Judo and Jiu-Jitsu what modern sport Karate is to the old Te styles of hand fighting or Wing Chun........one is for competition and entertainment; the other is to stay alive and maintain your freedom.
  19. user

    user New Member

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    I was raised in one of those neighborhoods where one sports scars from elementary school knife fights. That and my family background taught me vigilence and situation awareness.

    In my youth, I studied Judo for seven years. One author above made a reference to "belt factories" and there are, and were at that time, plenty of those. This was a small hole-in-the-wall dojo taught by an expatriate Cuban who'd been trained in, and maintained his connections to, the kodokan. I was required to register with the Kodokan in order to be a student there. So this guy was pretty serious about the training. In a belt factory, one gets a (non sanctioned) black belt in three years or less; I was second in Virginia, but never got beyond brown (next before black). Judo taught me how to move, and to have self-discipline and self-control.

    I still feel that I could break someone's arm eight different ways just on the basis of instinct produced by effective training, and I'm aware that there are people frequenting this website that are far superior to me in that respect. But most people don't have those kinds of resources. That's why I'm interested in defensive firearms.
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