When and where took place the wolrd's last...

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Ursus, Mar 19, 2010.

  1. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    ...combat between propeller driven figthers? What were the aircrafts involved?. Let's see is your answers are the same than mine.
  2. red14

    red14 New Member

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    Korea?
  3. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    Sorry, wrong answer
  4. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    ...think "globally"
  5. ofitg

    ofitg New Member

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    I heard about a U.S. helicopter (door gunner) shooting down a Pathet Lao biplane back in the '60s.... wierd story...... supposedly, the Pathet Lao scratched up two biplanes from somewhere and hand-dropped bombs onto a small installation of U.S. and Laotian troops. A U.S. copter was nearby and came to the rescue. The door gunner used all his ammo to bring down one biplane, and then the copter flew directly above the second biplane - the downwash from the copter's rotor drove the biplane into the ground.

    The U.S. was still using prop jobs in limited roles in Southeast Asia - T28s and the like - but I never heard about a T28 mixing it up with a Communist prop job.
  6. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    Good info, but it is not the answer. We're talking about propeller driven figthers
  7. ofitg

    ofitg New Member

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    I don't see anybody jumping in here, so I'll take a guess - Maybe it was in your part of the world? Possibly the 1969 border war with Honduras? According to what I've read, the two opposing Air Forces employed P51 Mustangs, F4U Corsairs and T28 Trojans.
  8. Millwright

    Millwright Active Member

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    Gotta be in the Americas, someplace ! Jugs, Mustangs and Invaders were the sine qua non of a lot of Banana Republic "Wars" until the Sixties.......Also about the only place you could find a "prop v prop" conflict.

    Ooops ! Could also have been in Africa ! Same sh**, different continent !! >MW
  9. petesusn

    petesusn New Member

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    I don't know if it will make any difference but are you talking recipricating or turbo prop?
  10. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    Exactly!! Actually Honduras employed Corsairs and El Salvador Mustangs. So, to keep the discussion going, wich one would you choose?. Any guess on who got the upper hand?
  11. petesusn

    petesusn New Member

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    Looks like ofitg was pretty well right on. Here's a bit more explanation of the "Football War".

    "When things became desperate for the Salvadoran Air Force, a number of well-known American pilots with current experience on the P-51 Mustang were retained, including Chuck Lyford, Bob Love, Lynn Garrison, and Ben Hall. Their presence was a stabilizing factor. Their missions against the Honduran Vought F4U Corsairs marked the world's last combat between propeller driven aircraft."

    Reports of dogfights are uncomfirmed though.
    One Honduran Corsair did land at Aguilares, in El Salvador, either because of damage or because it ran out of gas. In addition, one Salvadoran F-51 and one Honduran Corsair landed in Guatemala.
    It is interesting to note that both countries flew both the F-51 and the F4U

    " The war is often cited as the last occasion on which piston-engined fighters fought each other, both sides deploying former World War II and Korean War American aircraft. Cavalier F-51D Mustangs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_Mustang#Cavalier_F-51D) F4U-1, -4 and -5 Corsairs, T-28A Trojans, AT-6C Texans and even C-47 Skytrains converted into bombers saw action."

    And more yet.

    "Corsairs flew their final combat missions during the 1969 "Football War" between Honduras and El Salvador, in service with both air forces. The conflict was famously triggered, though not really caused, by a disagreement over a football (soccer) match. Both sides claimed various numbers of kills, and each side disputed the claims of the other.[87] At the outset of the Football War, El Salvador enlisted the assistance of several American pilots with P-51 and F4U experience. Bob Love, a Korean war ace, Chuck Lyford, Ben Hall and Lynn Garrison flew in the world's last combat between propeller-driven fighters. Lynn Garrison had purchased F4U-7 133693 from the French MAAG office when retired from French naval service in 1964. It was registered N693M and was later destroyed in a 1987 crash in San Diego, California"
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  12. ofitg

    ofitg New Member

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    I think a WW1 ace remarked that success in aerial combat was about 20% skill, 20% equipment, and 60% pure dumb luck. For the anachronistic scenario we're discussing - prop jobs blazing away at each other with machine guns - the WW1 pilot's assessment probably still applies.

    So, Ursus, which side was luckier?

    Regarding the war's outcome - The Salvadorans kept El Salvador, and the Hondurans kept Honduras. I would say that El Salvador was the winner.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  13. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    Well it depends on your definition of winner. Honduras land troops never got into El Salvador. Salvadorean troops took 7 cities on enemy territory, but due to pressure from OAS they released them in a few days. Post war litigation lasted for almost 2 decades, and the outcome was that portions of salvadorean territory, (that were considered salvadorean before the war) had to be transfered to Honduras.
    So, military El Salvador won, but political, diplomatical and "legally" Honduras had the last laugh.
    Sounds familiar to you, my dear friends? (Specially the Viet-Vets)
  14. ofitg

    ofitg New Member

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    I confess, my prior remarks were really a jab at Honduras. I remember when I flew from Tegucigalpa back to the U.S. in the '80s.... The airport in Tegucigalpa was a run-down little building, goats walking around, FUSEP had assigned a female officer to watch the goings-on in the men's restroom (God knows why)..... our first stop was San Salvador - beautiful airport, large, modern, immaculate. That was my only time in El Salvador, but it made a very positive impression. The short flight from Tegucigalpa to San Salvador was like traveling forward 50 years in a time machine.
  15. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    Well, they've improved some...now the goats are trained to clear the runway when a plane is landing:)
  16. ofitg

    ofitg New Member

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    When I was there (1985-86), Honduras was listed as the second-poorest country in the Western Hemisphere.... Haiti was the poorest.
    From what I saw of Honduras, they had plenty of natural resources, but a totally corrupt society.

    Humorous story - Honduras had a couple of old F86s at the time, and one of them flew overhead at our worksite - one of our younger guys came running inside, yelling that we were being attacked by a Mig.

    The most significant military action that I heard about while I was there, was when one Hondo general sent a truckload of troops to attack another Hondo general's house in Tegucigalpa.
  17. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    Well. their National Soccer Team is much better than El Salvador's own
  18. Ursus

    Ursus New Member

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    ...and about corruption, things are not much better here...
  19. ofitg

    ofitg New Member

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    With the sad state our government is in, the U.S. does not have bragging rights anymore.
  20. Millwright

    Millwright Active Member

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    Corsairs, vs Mustangs ? Both are excellent A/S aircraft ! What altitudue did combat take place, etc ?" Each aircraft had an "advantage". But the mods/models employed in the tactical situation play a part !! Just as does the maintenance /arming does !! Think a replay of WW2 all over again ! >MW
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2010
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