which caliber for all around use?

Discussion in 'Large-Bore/Small-Bore Rifle/Shotgun' started by hunter29180, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    come to think of it, my .458 is only pushing 500gns at around 2000fps. the 500 is insane to shoot though, shot one cylinder and was done!

    even the .45-70 revolver I shot was pale in comparison to the 500!

    posted this on a thread I started yesterday, this is an EXCELLENT book for understanding ballistics, highly recommend to any serious shooters.

    [​IMG]
  2. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, those monster guns do have some kick! I use to have a 454, weighed about 6lb empty, add 5 shots and almost 7 lb...it was a 2 hander and then some to shoot! ( took 2 hands and all the muscle you could bring and it still manhandled you!!) it just got too heavy to carry up and down mountians..went to a 357 till that bull incident..then 45lc just because I could use a "cowboy" rig and felt more comfortable than with a shoulder or regular hip setup.
  3. GLS_1956

    GLS_1956 New Member

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    Between those three cartridges the choice is easy. It's the 308 Winchester. More rifles chambered for that round and any of the other two, probably more rifles chambered for the 308 Winchester than the other two combined.

    there is also a greater range of loads for the 308 Winchester than for the other two.
  4. kentuckyrifleman

    kentuckyrifleman Member

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    I got three guns, a jc higgins .22 that is real accurate. So:)me of them old .22s can really shoot. :)

    I got an Ithaca 12 gage pump and I got my favorite its a 300 Savage lever. It was my daddys favorite gun. It does it all. so to answer the question the best overall is my 300 savage lever.
  5. CJ_56

    CJ_56 New Member

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    First no one said that a shotgun was better than a rifle for shooting distance or trying to hit a small point. What was said was that a shotgun can shoot slugs plenty accurate enough to kill game and they can shoot shot loads and be more likely to hit a flying bird for example.

    I think some of the claims made here about the equivalence of a pellet shot from a .410 pellet and a pellet shot from a 12 ga. are not the same information I've heard (and seen) in my life. What I see on the ballistics listed on various shotgun shells is that a .410 will shoot around 1100-1150 fps while a 12 ga. will drive pellets from 1200-1350 fps and more if you're using 3" or 3.5" shells. And there's more to the dispersion patterns than has been mentioned. .410's are generally limited to full choke because they contain such a small amount of shot that they can fail to get the job done simply by not getting enough shot into the target. And this stuff about a 12 ga. spreading much faster is not what I see coming from my shotgun. It depends greatly not only on the choke but on the barrel length. But the certainly make full chokes for 12 ga. shotguns just like they do for .410 shotguns. In fact they make chokes that are even tighter than the standard full choke. They are generally called turkey chokes or something else besides just a full choke. And if you put a turkey choke on a shotgun with a 26" or 28" barrel you will get a very tight pattern. Ammo also plays a part in that equation. Federal has developed a way to keep shot in a very tight pattern using a new design for the wads.

    In short a .410 is not sending shot out as fast as a 12 ga. does so the power won't be there. And between the lower speed and the smaller number of pellets (which applies to both bird shot and buck shot) a .410 just isn't nearly as effective as a 12 ga.. Is it effective enough? It depends on what you want to do. I do know that a .410 slug will usually weigh 1/5 oz. compared to a 1 oz. (or higher - Breneke Black Magic 12 ga. slugs weigh 1 3/8 oz) and the speeds are fairly close but the 12 ga. is again usually a little faster. But there's a HUGE difference in a 1/5 oz. slug and a 1 oz. slug. And for dangerous game there just isn't anything .410 that compares with those Black Magic slugs traveling at 1500 fps. You might kill a deer at 50 yards with a .410 slug. But you can kill a charging brown bear with a 12 ga. slug especially if it's a magnum slug. Yes they do make heavier slugs for .410's but the design of them makes me really wonder because the slug sticks out past the normal case length of the shells. That means single shot, breakdown barrels only and even then I wonder about what would happen. I think they expect you to buy a special barrel to shoot those things.
  6. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    .410's aren't the greatest shell for autoloaders or pumps for certain. new commercial rouns will feed, sure, but like ya say some loads or old tired reloads won't hold up in anything but a fixed barrel, either single or double. 12g hulls last longer and have so many more options of projectiles and of course power. 1/5oz slugs are usually moving around 1800fps though in the little .410, so velocity isn't really much different between .410 and 12. just the payload.

    barrel length has absolutely nothing to do with choke/pattern. The choke merely 'grabs' onto the wad moreso and allows the shot to leave the barrel less molested resulting in tighter patterns. whether that's at the end of an 18" barrel or a 28" barrel makes no difference.

    and yes, on full choke for the .410 being about the only option, not enough shot to fill a larger pattern and be effective.
  7. CJ_56

    CJ_56 New Member

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    That's not true. It is true that with interchangeable chokes the length of the barrel has a lot less to do with shot patterns but back before those chokes guns were essentially designed to disperse shot by the length of the barrel. A shorter barrel (back then probably a 26") would be an IC pattern while a 30" would be a full choke. They had extra full chokes or the equivalent which would have been 32" or even 36" barrels. Those guns were duck hunting guns designed to reach out and take a large bird at significant heights. I know full well that first the adjustable choke barrel extensions (I have a Mossberg that has one - it's called a poly-choke) allowed people to adjust their shotgun from usually IC to full. Then came interchangeable chokes. But trust me, before those things existed spread patterns were controlled by barrel length. And that still applies to some shotguns. The physics still exist. They have just started using a different method for the most part but not always.

    If you don't believe me maybe you'll believe Massad Ayoob. Yes I looked it up but I knew this before I looked it up. I just went looking for proof of what I said. I'm curious though. Why do you think people sawed off their shotguns back when that was still legal? It was to make the shot pattern bigger of course. It has a limited effect but it does work to a degree. For example it won't hit everything on the other side of the room like they show you on tv but it will certainly make the shot pattern spread more than an IC shotgun.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  8. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    no

    You read incorrectly, Ayoob stated that the longer barrel with a full choke patterned tighter than the shorter barrel with modified choke. He said absolutely nothing about equal chokes and different barrel lengths.

    Barrel length does not make any significant changes to pattern all other things being equal. The people that sawed off their shotguns watched too much Charles Bronson or something, all it does is make it a bit handier inside the home lenthwise. or maybe it looks cool or something.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  9. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Well-Known Member

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    aa1911, I will have to disagree with your statement on sawing of the barrels of shotguns! many a marshal or sheriff in the early days cut off 12 guages to make what was known as a "GREENER' shotgun usually always a double barrel and usually those were made with at least 1 barrel as a full choke as most all shotguns were used for bird hunting. the "greener" made a highly effective crowd control tool when loaded with scrap metal or buckshot. some of the paterens were measured at 8 ft just 6 ft from the barrel! never did understand where the term "greener" came from though!...

    suggest you try out with a old single shot ! I know short barrel shotguns were used a lot in viet nam. best foxhole cleaner and bunker cleaner we had, as 1 or 2 shots would usually disable anyone inside!
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  10. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    I think it only works because old shotguns used to have fixed barrels so yes, in that case the pattern would open up considerably going from say modified or whatever the original barrel was to cylinder bore.
  11. JohnnyFlake

    JohnnyFlake New Member

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    "Greener" is the actual name of the manufacturer of the Greener Shotguns. It was not called a Greener because the barrels were cut short. Greener started to manufactured shotguns in the early to mid 1800s. They were high quality guns and very much in demand.

    BTW, there is no doubt in my mind that if you cut 30" barrels down to 16"/18" the pattern will open up to some degree, maybe a few inches at 50' or less, but not excessively.
  12. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    Have to disagree here; barrel length and pattern have pretty much nothing to do with one another. The main reason 'sawed off shotguns' opened up was because the gun had a modified or some other choked barrel on it; only the last couple inches or so has the choke/restriction so when you remove that (saw off your barrel) then it becomes cylinder bore. That obviously makes a big difference but if you test a 30" barrel vs an 18" barrel with identical or no choke, your pattern is going to be pretty similar. (assuming the exact same gun, ammo, etc... different shotguns/ammo types can pattern much different from one to the next)

    Here is an excerpt from the ballistics book I showed at the top of this page, concerning barrel length and pattern;

    [​IMG]
  13. hunter29180

    hunter29180 Well-Known Member

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    as the book said, and I would agree...at LEGAL and NORMAL for what we were suggesting it is NOT normal OR LEGAL!!

    the judge is a example of what is being suggested. in a normal 410 the pattern is good out to 40-50 yds for small game. BUT if the same shell is shot with a judge with a 4 in barrel, the pattern is usless past 20-25 ft for game! why? because the pattern opens up so much faster and their isnt enough shot density to do the job.

    the same would hold true reguardless of the guage used. its physics, no way around that hurdle.
  14. Bindernut

    Bindernut Well-Known Member

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    The Judge isn't a typical short-barrel either though...it's rifled. The rifling is what is causing the extreme pattern spread.
    Take a rifled slug barrel on a full length shotgun and pattern it next to a similar length/choke smoothbore barrel. The pattern will open up faster due to centripedal force from the spin imparted by the rifling, not the barrel length.
    Forcing cone and choke are the predominant factor in determining how a shotgun barrel perform, length has little to do with it except some velocity loss as it gets shorter.
  15. aa1911

    aa1911 Active Member

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    and another example of different chokes. Judge is rifled as stated above and has no restriction/choke.

    A normal .410 is FULL choke. So yes, there's a huge difference due to that and the rifling.

    A 4" smoothbore with cylinder bore choke vs an 18" or 30" smoothbore cylinder bore will pattern pretty similar. Velocity is probably the only thing that would really alter the pattern and probably not much.

    Most of the powder in a shotgun is burned up within the first 2 inches or so; barrel length past that gives relatively small gains in velocity and nothing significant enough to measure for pattern.
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