Which is the more effective round?

Discussion in 'The Ammo & Reloading Forum' started by Doug.38PR, Nov 11, 2008.

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Which is the better police round?

  1. Remington .38 Special+P LSWCHP (FBI Load)

    4 vote(s)
    12.5%
  2. Winchster Ranger/Federal Tactical 40

    13 vote(s)
    40.6%
  3. Winchster Ranger/Federal Tactical 9mm+P+

    2 vote(s)
    6.3%
  4. Winchster Ranger/Federal Tactical .357 Sig

    13 vote(s)
    40.6%
  1. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    Remington .38 Special+P Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollowpoint (aka FBI Load)
    Winchester Ranger/Federal Tactical .40
    Winchester Ranger/Federal Tactical 9mm+P+
    Winchester Ranger/Federal Tactical .357 Sig

    Just looking for an idea or set of opinons on which is the better police round. I recently read an article by, if I remember right, a reputable firearms writer which stated of the old .38 Special +P: "When police went to semi autos they got more bullets, not better bullets" as the old .38 Spl.+P LHP was a "proven street performer" which had the effect of a ".45 hardball"

    Statistics? Opinions? Votes?

    I have not tried the .40 or the .357 Sig. BUT, I have tried both the Federal Tactical 9mm+P+ 124 gr Hydrashok and 9mm 147 gr Hydrashok into the sand pile both directly and through objects (sheetrock, hardiboard, wood etc.)...the former expanded somewhat...but very little on one side. The latter almost never expanded and just kinda drilled into the sand.
    Before shooting the nine, I fired the old .38 Spl.+P LSWCHP into the sand and through objects. It expanded PERFECTLY and mushroomed everytime I would shoot it into the sand. It would expand everytime in some way when shooting it through objects even if it wasn't entirely perfect (it would still penetrate and ruin someones day)
    Based on this...I go for old school

    Here are some pictures of my results

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The front is .38 Spl. The first one on the far left is one fired directly into the sand, the rest went through something(s) before going into the sand

    The back is Hydrashok 9mm. The left side seperated by the old laundry tag is 124 gr +P+ and the right side is 147 gr.
    In almost every case, the 9m+P+ in order to expand to any degree had to go through a hard object. If fired into sand, it didn't do much.
    The 147 gr performed pitifully in each case always either caving in on itself or scooping sheetrock, hardiboard concrete or wood and drilling into the sand.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2008
  2. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    numbers do not lie. go to wwwmouseguns.com and check out some interesting facts about ammo and ballistics. the 147 gr 9mm was a solution to a to a problem that didn't exsist. the 115 gr jhp from corbon was performing 95% one shot stops. any way it's all opinions but the 357 sig is a great round and far outclasses any 38 or 9mm load.
  3. CTM

    CTM New Member

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    357 sig hands down
  4. doug66

    doug66 New Member

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    The one that hits its target.

    The loads listed are all effective.
  5. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    the .357 sig is as effective as a .357 mag. except with the sig you get more shots...
  6. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    ^
    Well, on a light .357 load. (125 gr)...but a 158-180 gr is quite a different story.

    Still, even if it is a .357 magnum. There is a school of thought out there that belives slower moving is actually better in some cases than a round that just speeds on through you. (Not that I necessarily agree with it entirely)
  7. JohndeFresno

    JohndeFresno New Member

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    The .40 SW has proven itself with many police agencies, and now in many shooting situations, to be an effective fight stopper, close to that of the powerful .45; but it is easier on the average shooter, at least by popular vote, and so it appears to be one of the most effective rounds for "true" battlefield accuracy in a real life scenario coupled with a respectable diameter and weight.

    Then along comes the .357 SIG - much louder on the ears, more problematic to load with its shouldered round, and so on. But since it approaches the .357 magnum, by almost all observations it is the most effective fight stopper in the list you have named. Note that Sky Marshals and other undercover police who frequently practice with their pistol have carried this round in various assignments. It is more expensive, not as easy to reload, and perhaps a little harder to master; but I believe that you will find that it is by far the most superior police round of the bunch.
  8. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    Wow, I didn't know the .357 Sig had such a large following among modern policemen. I would have thought most policemen would be clicking on 40 S&W. I know the Texas DPS State Troopers carry the .357 Sig, but Houston Police requires .40 S&W and I know several policemen outside of Houston that prefer the .40 caliber.

    It does kind of surprise me that the 40 S&W and .357 Sig have such a difference in how loud the discharge is. I mean, the .357 Sig cartridge is essentially a .40 S&W cartridge designed to accept a 9mm round. Same amount of powder right? Just slower moving on the .40 S&W.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2008
  9. JLA

    JLA Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly Doug, Just like comparing straight walled rifle cartridges to bottleneck rifle cartridges. The reduced neck causes a restriction, which increases turbulence within the case, which increases pressure, peaking the pressure curve for a longer period of time which results in higher velocities and a louder report. perhaps the best test for this explanation is to fire both, a standard .40 s&w cartridge with a bullet weight the same as a standard .357 sig cartridge. I will guarantee you the .357 sig will be louder and faster.
  10. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    ^
    Unfortunately, I don't own either of the two....yet. If I ever get another Sig226, it will be a .357 Sig. I have a two friends who have .40 S&W guns


    I noticed somebody else selected the .38 FBI load. Like to hear their comment as well as the person who selected 9mm+P+
  11. Night Driver

    Night Driver New Member

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    The FBI did intensive testing of various calibers and cartridges after the tragic gunfight in Florida sometime in the 80's I believe. They tested for penetration thru windshield glass, typical automobile sheet metal and ballistic jelly, wallboard and who knows what else.

    The result was the issueing of the 10mm cartridge in the Colt Delta Elite. Unfortunately few agents could shoot the the thing very well because of the recoil and muzzle blast. As a compromise they down loaded theround making it on parr with the 45 long Colt, 45 ACP and the 40 AE. Basically there contention was just about any caliber was OK. As long as it started with a 4
  12. TranterUK

    TranterUK Guest

    My choice for the most effective of those given would be the .40.

    I realise it is not the most powerful but I would regard it as the most effective. For example by allowing quick follow up shots by being 'mild mannered' and controllable, more so than the Sig.
  13. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    I'm kinda surprised the 9mm+P+ isn't getting any more votes than it has as it's one of the most common, if not THE most common police rounds out there (save a lot of big city police departments and state police that have all gone to .40 S&W or .357 Sig)
    Personally, as said, I prefer the .38 Spl. +P LSWCHP 158 gr. It has been the most impressive in the sandpile. When I get the chance, I'll have a friend of mine try his Glock 40 in the sand to see what it does. My electrician has a S&W M&P .357 Sig. I'll see if he can't try it out next time he comes by.

    Interesting. two more people besides myself have also chosen the .38 Spl.
  14. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    in everything i've read on various rounds i do know this the 158 gr 38 even in +P loadings isn't close to a 9mm +p . they have been tested to death over the years. now as for the 40 s&w and the 357 sig. check the facts the 357 has vastly more ft lbs of engery a 125gr 357 sig can be had in a 500 ft lb loading near equal to a 125 gr 357 mag load. the 40 is close but doesnt match the 357. check the info on www.mouseguns.com tons of information and facts concerning different ammo which is best and why ......
  15. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    Close in what? Velocity? Well a 9mm 115 grain even standard will outrun a .38 158 gr+P. This is understandable as the .38 is typically a heavier bullet. But penetration and expansion is what you are shooting for. Bullet weight carrys a lot of....well weight in regard to penetration.


    In regard to the M-19s shaking apart question from too many light .357s, I've always said, "Why use a light 125 gr round that is going to do more damage to your gun, and less damage to the bad guy when you can use a 158 gr round that will do less damage to your gun and more damage to the bad guy"

    I'd wonder if you'd care to elaborate on this statement..
    The other day, I unleashed a full magazine of 15 of these into the sandpile. I only had a few minutes to dig (and the sand was icy cold) and the ones I found didn't expand worht a flip, in fact most of them caved in on themselves. I'll dig later for the rest, but I imagine the results will be the same
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  16. kevinleif37

    kevinleif37 New Member

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    seems to me like every bullet seems just as dangerous as another-hit the right spot = dead

    i been to training classes were they show one police officer who was shot with a .22 (i believe, if not then it was a .380)...went into his armpit and into his organs-slow death, but none the less the officer tragically died...from a small cal round
  17. CampingJosh

    CampingJosh Well-Known Member

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    This is true, but it's also misleading. A small, low-powered round (.22LR for example) has very few "right spots" that will cause a single-shot kill, while a 9mm or .357 have significantly more "right spots."

    Human death from gunshot wounds usually occur in one of three ways: (1) destruction of the central nervous system, (2) lack of sufficient blood pressure caused by blood loss, or (3) significant destruction of bodily tissue.
    There are very few handgun rounds that can cause #3.

    Smaller-caliber handguns generally also cannot cause #2 with a single shot. The only "right spot" for a .22LR is into the brain or spinal cord (#1). Occasionally, one of these small calibers will hit a major blood vessel, which can lead to #2 (as in your story; it seems likely the bullet actually punctured his heart).

    The larger, faster, and heavier a bullet is (generally speaking), the more likely it is to inflict one of these three types of wounds. A 9mm makes a much bigger hole in everything it hits than a .22, which opens up much more the possibility of causing #2 in the body.

    EDIT: Glocknut, I don't want to hear anything about "#2"
  18. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    i stated the 38 +p 158 gr isn't close to the 9mm +p in energy or speed. the great news is this isn't subjective personal opinion. it's been tested to death. a +p9mm ( corbon) has a record of 91% in one shot stops. a 38 +p in 158 gr shows a 78% in one shot stops and thats for a 4 in bbl. a 2 in bbl and the percentage drops to 67%. the ME from a 9mm +p is 450 ft lbs while a 38 as described is 342 in a 4in bbl and 280 from a 2in bbl. desing has alot to do with effectiveness and stopping power. all the speed and ft lbs in the world isn't worth a damn ( in handgun ammo) unless that energy is transferred/dumped into it's target. thats why ball ammo will zip right through alot of targets while a well designed hollow point upon hitting it's target will open up and "dump" it's energy thus limiting penetration.i do not think shooting into a sandpile give a example of real life situations. and most ballistic testing is done with 10% gelatin again i suggest going to www.mouseguns.com and reading what the experts say on ammunition and ballistics. now my disclaimer when i choose to pack my colt detective speciali use 158 gr swchp +p because for the 38 i feel it's the best choice. but i do not feel the 38 is a perfect choice. when i choose to pack my browning it's loaded with corbon 115 gr +p . my 45 gets federal hi-shok 230 jhp. my sig(357) gets 125 gr jhp
  19. oscarmayer

    oscarmayer New Member

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    now for a reply on on remark about 147 gr 9mm. first off the 9mm round has been proven to be most effective in 115 to 125 gr loadings again also tested to death. the 147 gr doesn't feed as well in some guns. mostly lower end guns but not every one can afford a sig or hk. and 147 gr doesn't open up as well as a 115 gr round. it's the opening up of and dumping of it energy that makes it work so well. the best round out there is a 125 gr jhp in 357 mag for one shot stops . not the 180 hunting loads. it all about a balance between the weight of the bullet and speed and energy. why is a 45 lc 250 gr swchp a poor man stopper next to a 115 gr 9mm ? heavy and slow like a 158 gr 38 doesn't alway work as well as some of the lighter loads. bullet design has alot to do with it also. the 45 acp 200 gr jhp corbon far out performs the 230 gr ball or even alot of 230 hp's .
  20. Doug.38PR

    Doug.38PR Member

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    I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this. a 45 250 gr swchp a poor manstopper next to a 115 gr 9mm.

    Lighter doesn't have the penetration of the heavier. I mean....it's like the difference between throwing a brick at a window and a wadded up piece of paper. The piece of paper is lighter and faster...but it won't shatter with window like a brick will. Or bugs against a windshield. They splatter....heavier pieces of gravel will knick or even crack a windshield.
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