winchester 12 gauge & Ithaca 12 gauge

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by senior, Oct 5, 2006.

  1. senior

    senior New Member

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    friend has both of above and wishing a price to ask: Winchester 12 gauge is 1893 model she claims and in perfect condition serial # A23xxx, also an Ithaca 12 gauge serial # 180xxx, 32 inch barrel to the break (whatever that means) thank u gentlemen, would like an EMAIL respose if possible to: manofleasure2000@yahoo.com If unable to email i'll check back here for her, thanks again
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2006
  2. Mark

    Mark New Member

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    Winchester didn't prefix their serial numbers until after WWII, so right away I suspect the 1893 is something else.
    Mark
  3. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    The Winchester Model 1893 was their first pump shotgun. It was designed by John M. Browning (one of his very few bad designs). Only about 35,000 were made due to due to weaknesses that developed when shooting smokeless powder. Winchester recalled these guns and offered a brand new shotgun of customer's choice when they returned their Model 1893. As a result there aren't too many of these around.

    Please tell your friend not to shoot this gun with smokeless powder shotgun loads.

    Blue Book Value:

    98% - $850
    95% - $750
    90% - $675
    80% - $600

    On the Ithaca.....gonna need a lot more information.

    When your friend says "32 inch barrel to the break" I'm assuming that it's a break-open shotgun......which means it's a single barrel or side-by-side double.

    Ithaca made a whole bunch of single and double barrel shotguns.....with a wide variety of values.....so we'll need to know the following.

    Single or double?

    Hammer or hammerless?

    Condition?

    Grade?

    Auto ejectors or not?

    Vented or plain rib?

    Damascus or Fluid Steel barrels?
  4. Red Neck64

    Red Neck64 Former Guest

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    I thought it was the 1887 that was of weak design,with the 1893 being Superior?"Sorry your right the two are weak allergic to smokeless powder."
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2006
  5. senior

    senior New Member

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    thanks for info gentlemen on the winchester, i'll pass along the info, the ithiaca i'll let her talk to a dealer or somene as she knows absolutly nothing of firearms and wouldn't have any idea what iwas asking about those other bits of info u need, she resides in Ak so unable to see the gun myself!
  6. Xracer

    Xracer *TFF Admin Staff Mediator*

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    Minn-eeee-sota, ya, sure, you bet!
    Senior.....tell your friend to be careful on getting a dealer's opinion....especially if they offer to buy the gun. Some of these old Ithaca shotguns, depending on grade and condition, can be quite valuable (in the $3-4,000 range) in the fancier grades.

    I'd suggest that she get several opinions as to the value of the gun.

    Red Neck....the 1887 was a lever action shotgun. The 1893 was Winchester's first pump action, and had some design weaknesses. The next Winchester pump, the Model 1897, was not only an improved design, but IMO, one of the great shotguns of all time.
  7. polishshooter

    polishshooter Active Member

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    The '93 was a GREAT shotgun for BP rounds, and there are a few out there still, that guys use with low power smokeless, but Browning simply missed the trend, designed it for BP when smokeless was already around....

    There wasn't a HECKUVA lot of changes between the '93 and '97 besides the steel...in fact, didn't they just pick up the serial numbers from the '93 and continue them with the '97?


    Once in the 80s in a gunshop in Athens Ohio where I hung out alot, I found a SWEET refinished "'97" slug gun" on the rack, shortened, reblued with a well done Williams receiver sight on it and a ramp front....and saw what I thought was a GOOD price on it, until I looked CLOSELY and saw the Model 1893 on the action bar....I hope to Heaven NOBODY bought it and shot SLUGS through it...I mentioned it to the owner and he said yeah, he would warn anybody who wanted it, to his credit he DIDN'T have it tagged as a '97....but what's funny is maybe I SHOULD have bought it and put it away....how did I know "Cowboy Action" would be what it is today?:cool:



    And I TOTALLY agree, the '97 is the BEST.....:p

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  8. onlywinchesters

    onlywinchesters New Member

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    Good morning Senior: It always amazes me when I read what people have "learned"!

    First off the serial number "A" 23xxx or

    A
    23xxx

    As it would be stamped on the gun tells me that it's the "A" version, the first major engineering change, that came out around S/N 13000. At about 32800 it went to a "B". These alpha characters continued on into the production of the Md 1897/97 along with the serial numbers. Soon after the 1897 came out, it went to a "C", and finally ended with an "E".

    These guns were not recalled as Xracer stated. They were just superseded by the Md 1897 which was for the "NEW" smokeless powder. The only Winchester shotgun recalled was the Md 40.

    The Md 1893 came with a 2 5/8th chamber and was for Black Powder only. It came with one of 3 barrel types. Rolled Steel, 3 blade damascus, or 4 blade damascus. The later two were "special order".

    The damacus barreled 1893s will bring more money than the rolled steel barreled one.

    I'm alway a little leary when someone says it's in "excellant" condition. Your talking about a gun that over 110 years old and was used with black powder. (black powder is corrosive). It almost sounds as if it has been "reblued" or "restored" and yes there is a big difference. A gun this age, even if it was a closet queen, should be basically be an even "brown patina". Also the stocks and metal should be close to the same condition. Meaning if the metal is in 98% condition and the stocks are in 50% condition, they don't go together!!

    As to the value, with out seeing pictures, and only the brief description, it could be worth $400 to $5000. Some 1893s had engraving, and there were a few that were "special order" guns.

    As to the Ithaca with a serial number of 180,000 tells me it was made in 1908. since you state 32 in "barrel" to the break and not (barrels) this sounds like it might be a single barrel Trap.. You will have to remove the barrel and get the info from the 'water table" along with all the info stamped on the barrel, and the side of the frame. Detailed descrition of the metal and stocks or post pictures. This could be a $700 gun or a $7000 gun.

    Get back to us with the missing detail!!

    Regards Dave
  9. wonderwhippet

    wonderwhippet Active Member

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    Dave, I have to agree about the term"perfect" or even "excellent" condition. Most non-collectors think a reblue job makes a firearm the same as new. The term "original finish" means nothng to them.
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