world war 1 pistols.

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by gravegr, Jun 18, 2010.

  1. gravegr

    gravegr New Member

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    i have two pistols that i am trying to sell and i dont have clue what would be a fair price for me and the buyer. the first one is a world war 1 pistol nickle plated and the information on the pistol is azaiizay arrizabalaga- modelo 1916 it also has AA on it. it also has the numbers 33564 stamped on it. people tell me this pistol is called a ruby. the other pistol is fabrique national D'armes de guerre herstal belgique browning patent depose. this pistol has the original holster with word browning pistol kal 7.65 stamped on it. these two pistols look great. if anyone could help me with the value of these pistols i would appreciate it very much. thank you.
  2. oneshot onekill

    oneshot onekill New Member

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    It's really impossible to say without pictures... But both sound pretty interesting.
  3. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    azaiizay arrizabalaga

    well thats Basque a sub set of spanish used by the Basque people in Spain

    so looking up that here's what we have


    12-25-2006, 10:22 AM
    Pistolet Automatique de 7 millimètre 65 genre "Ruby"
    (Mfg by Gabilondo y Urresti-Eibar)


    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/Pis...surps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic1.jpg

    Caliber: ....................... 7.65mm Browning (32 ACP)
    Barrel Length: ............. 3.43 inches (87mm)
    Overall Length: ............ 6.2 inches (157mm)
    Weight Unloaded: ........ 2 lbs. 14.7 oz. (875 grams)
    Magazine capacity: ...... 7 to 9 rounds
    Qty mfg: ..................... Estimated that 960,000 were delivered




    Observations: (by "1886lebel")
    Note: Pics of revolver provided courtesy of MILSURPS.COM Advisory Panel member 1886lebel.

    During WWI, called "The Great War" in Europe, "La Grande Guerre" in France, the various French military forces which had suffered severe losses in men and material in the horrible opening battles of 1914 and early 1915, forced the military authorities to look for a replacement foreign handgun for its soldiers. A reason was that the three national armories, Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC), Saint Etienne (MAS) and Tulle (MAT) were forced to prioritize the manufacture of rifles and machine guns for the war effort and as Northern France, the most industrialized region, was under German Occupation, the French then looked to its southern neighbor Spain for its solution. Spain which had its arms making industry setup in the northeastern Basque region was a natural source of supply for handguns as they manufactured them in calibers that were common to the various military in Europe. The French authorities decided to purchase from Spain a semi-automatic pistol called the "Ruby" or otherwise known as to the French as the Pistolet Automatique de 7 millimètre 65 genre "Ruby".

    The Design
    The Pistolet Automatique de 7 millimètre 65 genre "Ruby" is a simplified and relatively inexpensive copy of the Browning Model 1903 that was made by Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre au Belgique (FN). The pistol is of a blowback design with an internal hammer, in 7.65mm (32 ACP) caliber, and can hold up to nine rounds in the magazine. It differs from the Model 1903 by several details which helped to diminish the production costs by easing the manufacturing process and using materials of a lower quality. The slide has an integral breechblock and a hanging forward extension which houses the recoil spring and guide that is positioned under the barrel. The position of the dismounting cut in the slide vault in the "Ruby" was located well forward of the ejection port which permitted the barrel to not only be disengaged from the frames grooves but to be withdrawn from the pistol without having to dismount the slide. The barrel is locked to the frame using three broad lugs and grooves instead of the six used in the Model 1903 which helped in cutting the production time without sacrificing the reliability. In order to drill out the firing pin tunnel in the breechblock, the rear face of the slide had to be perforated and when completed it was sealed with a piece of rod. The firing pin is retained by means of a simple screw in the lower face of the breechblock which made it much easier to remove and re-install the firing pin. The frame has a hole drilled out in the grip behind the magazine well to house the recoil spring which is held between two riveted abutments on the guide rod. The biggest problem with this system was that the spring was not easily replaced when it wore out and a whole new assembly had to be used. When this spring gets compressed during firing the guide rod protrudes through the hole in the front end of the slide and the rear end of the guide bears up against the flat of the safety lever pivot. This arrangement was designed and patented by Pedro Careaga Garagarza in 1911.
    The "Ruby" has no grip or magazine safety but there is a bulbous safety lever located on the left side of the frame just above the trigger guard. It hold the slide open when dismounting and blocks the trigger when it is in a "safe" position preventing the slide from being retracted but does not function as an hold open latch when the last round is fired. Sometime in the early 1920’s weapons overhaul period the French added a "safety knob" on left side of slide which helped to push out on the holster when holstering or upholstering to avoid moving the safety over to fire position. A wire staple lanyard loop with attached metal ring was added on the left side of heal of the butt to affix a regulation lanyard.

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic3.jpg

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic4.jpg

    A Firm is Chosen!
    The French Purchasing Commission chose the firm of Gabilondo y Urresti-Eibar to manufacture the pistol, which had began producing these weapons since 1914, as it main contract. A contract was given in the amount of 10,000 pieces a month beginning in August 1915 but it was eventually raised to 30,000 pieces. Gabilondo y Urresti-Eibar quickly realized that it would be necessary to obtain cooperation with other manufacturing firms to meet the demand so they made contracted with other Spanish companies to help manufacture the weapon. What resulted from this is that some of the smaller manufacturers, who by-passed Gabilondo y Urresti-Eibar and dealt directly with French purchasing agents, produced some lesser quality handguns that were unsafe. Some of these arms would fire when the slide ran forward to chamber a round, others fired when the safety was moved from safe to fire or even some went full automatic. Despite the small amount of unacceptable "Ruby's, Spain was able to supply enough of them to meet the French demand. All "Ruby" pistols were shipped to Manufacture d'Armes de Bayonne (MAB) where they were to be inspected and then shipped to the various units. The pistols were supposed to be marked with a star or set of stars on either side of the magazine release catch which was mark of French acceptance of foreign weapons but since these weapons were needed badly at the various fronts they did not always get this marking on them.
    There are two different theories regarding how the pistols and magazines were marked in relation to the makers or trade names, in both cases the pistol was marked with single or double block letters on the left rear frame tang and the base of the magazine. The reason for the magazines markings was it was found that the "Ruby" pistol magazines were not really all that generic as they varied from manufacturer to manufacturer and was done to make certain that the pistol had a magazine that fit and feed properly.
    The first was that all pistols that were sent to France during the war were normally marked with either single or double block letters within an oval circle and after the war they were just marked with just the single or double block letters without the oval circle. The magazines were then marked sometime late in the war or after the war.
    The second is that makers and trade name codes were added to both the pistols and magazines at the same time but what is not clear is when this was done but believed to have been during the early 1920’s overhauls.
    A full set of serial numbers were for the most part normally placed on the left side of the slide and frame but as in some instances some can be found without numbers on the frames, no serial numbers at all or on the right side of either the slide or frame. As a great deal of hand fitting was required for most of the internal parts it was necessary to mark these parts with a totally unrelated internal assembly number to be sure that these parts were devoted to a specific pistol. The under face of the barrel, under face of the safety lever, inside of the slide near the firing pin well, left side of the frame near the grip, left side of magazine catch, right side of trigger and the underside of the disconnector were marked with these assembly numbers. Magazines sometimes were also marked with the serial number for reasons stated above.
    NOTE: As there were over 30+ companies that manufactured these pistols, listed below is some of the different companies that manufactured these pistols, some of these were made during the post-war years and some are in 6.35mm (25 ACP) caliber. The ones listed with bold letters are the manufacturer codes that were referred to above.

    Acha y Cia, Eibar … "Acha"
    AH and AR: Acha Hermanos, Eibar or Ermunda ... "Looking Glass", sometimes the trade name was not used *Pistols marked "Looking Glass" seem to be post-WWI made*
    Domingo Acha, Eibar ... "Triplex"
    Aguirre y Cia, Eibar ... "Basculant", "Le Dragon"
    AL: Aldazabal, Leturiondo Y Cia, Eibar * ... "Aldazabal", sometimes the trade name was not used
    A. Aldazabal, Eibar * … "A.A.A."
    José Aldazabal, Eibar * ... "Imperial"
    Armas de Fuego, Guernica ... "Alkartasuna"
    AK: Fabrica de Armas Alkartasuna, SA, Guernica ... "Alkar", "Kapitan"
    V. Fabrica De Armas, Durango ... "Vencedor"
    AE: La Armeria Elgoibaresa, Eligobar ... "Lusitania"
    Apaoloza Hermanos, Zumorraga ... "Apaoloza", "Triomphe"
    Apaolozo Hermanos, Eibar ... "Paramount"
    Arana y Cia, Eibar ... "El Cano"
    Ariola Hermanos, Eibar ... "Ariola"
    A: Gaspar Arizaga, Eibar ... "Arizaga", "Misdial", "Pinkerton", "Warwinch", sometimes the trade names were not used
    AG: Francisco Arizmendi y Goenaga, Eibar ... "Ideal", "Roland", "Brunswig"
    Arizmendi y Goenaga, Eibar ... "F.A.", "F.A.G.", "Teuf-Teuf", "Waldman"
    AZ: Arizmendi, Zulaica y Cia, Eibar ... "Cebra", some may be over stamped "Beistegui Hermanos"
    Francisco Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Arizmendi", "Roland", "Singer", "Victor", "Ydeal"
    F. Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Boltun", "Guerre", "Kaba Special"
    Armero Espacialitas Reunidos, Eibar ... "Alfa", "Omega"
    Hijos de C. Arrizabalaga, Eibar ... "Arrizabalaga", "Campeon", "Especial"
    J. Arrizabalaga, Eibar ... "Esmi"
    AA: Azanza y Arrizabalaga, Eibar * … "A.A. Reims", "Modelo 1916"
    Hijos de Calixto Arrizabamaga, Eibar ... "Sharpshooter", "Terrible"
    EA: Arostegui Eulogio, Eibar ... "Azul", "E.A.", "Oscillant-Azu"
    S. Arostegui, Eibar ... "Browreduit"
    Aspiri y Cia, Eibar ... "Avion", "Colon"
    Astra Unceta y Cia, Guernica ... "Astra", "Cadix", "Camper"
    Barrenechea y Gallastegui, Eibar ... "Barrenechea"
    Hijos de Jorge Bascaran, Eibar ... "Marke", "Martigny"
    MA: Martin Bascaran, Eibar ... "Martian", "Thunder M1919"
    MB: Fa de Martin A. Bascaran, Eibar ... "Martian"
    BH: Beistegui Hermanos, Eibar ... "Beistegui", "B.H.", "Bulwark", "Libia", "Paramount", "1914 Model Automatic Pistol"
    BC: Victor Bernedo y Cia, Eibar ... "B.C.", "Bernedo", sometimes the trade names were not used
    VB: Victor Bernado y Cia, Eibar. No trade names used. *Some may have extended barrels*
    BA: Fab. de Bersaluzze Arieto-Aurena Y Cia, Eibar ... "Allies"
    GB: Gregorio Bolumburo, Eibar ... "Deluxe", "Gloria", "Giralda", "Marina", "Regent", "Regina", "Rex"
    G. Bolumburu, Eibar ... "Bolumburo", "Bristol"
    Crucelegui Hermanos, Eibar ... "Brong Petit", "Bron-Sport", "C.H.", "Le Brong", "Puppy"
    JE: Javier Echaniz, Eibar ... "Defender"
    Echave y Arizmendi, Eibar ... "Basque", "Bronco", "E.A.", "Echasa", "Lightning", "Lur-Panzer", "Pathfinder", "Protector", "Renard", "Selecta M1918", "Selecta M1919", "Vite M1913", "Vite M1914", "Vite M1915"
    I: Bonifacio Echeverria, Eibar ... "Estrella", "Izarra", "Star", "Vesta"
    HE: Hijos de A. Echeverria, Eibar ... "Vesta" (code may also be marked on slide), "Izarro"
    EC: Ergulaga y Cia, Eibar ... "Fiel"
    Manuel Escodin, Eibar ... "Escodin"
    Esperanza y Cia, Guernica ... "Astra"
    Esperanza y Unceta, Eibar ... "Astra:, "Campo Giro"
    EU: Esperanza y Unceta, Guernica ... "Model 1915" ( or 1916 ), "Astra Patent", "Brunswig Model 1916", "Victory"
    Antonio Errasti, Eibar ... "Dreadnought", "Errasti", "Oicet", "Smith Americano"
    A. Errasti, Eibar ... "Broncho"
    Esprin Hermanos, Eibar ... "Euskaro"
    Gabilondo y Cia, Eibar or Elgoibar ... "Danton", "Guisasola", "Mugica", "Perfect", "Plus Extra"
    GU: Gabilondo y Urresti, Eibar or Elgoibar ... "Bufalo", "Gabilondos", "Radium", "Ruby", "Ruby Extra", "Tauler"
    Fab. de Armas Garantizada, Eibar ... "Apache", "Garantizada", "Rural"
    GN: Garate, Anitua y Cia, Eibar ... "Danton", "El Lunar", "Express", "GAC", "Garate", "G.N.", "La Lira", "L'Eclair", "Sprinter", "Tigre", "Triumph"
    Garate Hermanos, Eibar or Ermua ... "Cantabria", "Velostark"
    Gastanaga, Trocaola y Cia, Eibar ... "T.A.C.", "Trocaola"
    IG: Isidrio Gatzanaga, Eibar ... "Destroyer", "Gazantanaga", "Horse Destroyer", "Indian", "Sureté"
    IS: Iraola y Salaverria y Cia ... No trade names used
    Fab. d'armes de Grande Précision, Eibar ... "Bulwark", "Colonial", "Grande Précision", "Helvece", "Jupiter", "Minerve", "Trust"
    Guisasola Hermanos, Eibar ... "G.H.", "Guisasola"
    LC: Laplana y Capdevila ... Trade names are unknown
    Larranaga y Elartza, Eibar ... "Jubala", "L.E."
    LH: Lasangabaster Hermanos, Eibar ... "Douglas"
    Lascauren y Olasola, Eibar ... "El Perro"
    Manufactura de Armas "Demon", Eibar ... "Demon"
    Mendiola, Eibar ... "Vainquer"
    Erquiaga Muguruzu y Cia, Eibar ... "Diane", "Fiel"
    Urquiaga y Muguruzu, Eibar ... "Marte"
    Obrea Hermanos, Eibar ... "Colon", "Iris", "La Industrial", "O.H.", "Orbea", "Perfecto"
    Cooperativa Obrera, Eibar ... "Longines"
    IO: La Industria Obrea, Eibar ... No trade names used
    Ojanguren y Marcaido, Eibar ... "Brow", "O.M."
    Ojanguren y Vidosa, Eibar ... "Apache", "Crucero", "Furia", "Militar Y Policia", "Ojanguren", "Puppet", "Salvaje", "Tanque"
    Onandia Hermanos, Eibar ... "Onandia"
    F. Ormachea, Eibar ... "Bron-Grand", "Duan", "Merke"
    Orueta Hermanos, Eibar ... "Oculto", "Tanker"
    RH: Retolaza Hermanos, Eibar ... "Brompetier", "Gallus", "Liberty", "Military", "Paramount", "Puppy", "Retolaza M1914", "Stosel", "Titan", "Titanic", "Titanic M1914", "Velo-Brom", "1914 Model Automatic Pistol"
    Santiago Salaberrin, Eibar ... "Etna", "Invicta", "Protector", "Tisan", "Unis"
    Iraola Salaverria y Cia, Eibar ... "Destructor", "Iraola", "Salaverria"
    Casimir Santos, Eibar ... "El Cid", "Vencedor"
    MS: Modesto Santos, Eibar … "Action", "M.S."
    S.E.A.M., Eibar ... "Praga", "Regent", "Silesia", "Sivispacem", "Waco"
    Suinaga y Aramperri, Eibar ... "S&A"
    Unceta y Cia, Guernica ... "Brunswig", "Fortuna", "Leston", "Liégeoise", "Museum", "Salso", "Union", "Victoria"
    Union Armera Eibaressa, Eibar ... "U.A.E."
    Union Fab. de Armas, Eibar ... "Rival M1913"
    Tomas de Urizar, Eibar or Barcelona ... "Continental", "Dek-Du", "Express", "Imperial", "La Basque", "Le Secours", "Phoenix", "Premier", "Princeps", "Puma", "Union", "Venus"
    UC: Urrejola y Cia, Eibar ... "U.C.", "Urrejola"
    ZC: Zulaica y Compania or Cia, Eibar ... "Royal", "Victory", "Vincitor M1914", "Vincitor M1914 No.2", "Zulaica M1914"
    Zuloga y Cia, Eibar ... "Volontaire"
    Zumorraga y Cia, Eibar ... "Paramount"
    CU: unknown
    CZ: unknown
    RG: unknown
    TM: unknown
    VD: unknown
    Unknown Makers ... "Aurora", "Boix", "Burgham Superior", "Ca-Si", "Cobra", "Mosser", "Muxi", "Oyez", "Peerless", "Rayon", "R.E.", "Reform", "Republic", "Rex", "S.M.", "Tatra", "Velo-Mith", "Velosmith", "Vilar", "Vulcain", "Zwylacka"

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic5.jpg

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic6.jpg

    Numbers Made and Usage
    It is impossible to know how many of these pistols were actually delivered to France as most of the records were either destroyed during the bombings of WWII in France or in Spain during the Spanish Civil War but it is estimated that approximately 960,000 were delivered.
    The Pistolet Automatique de 7 millimètre 65 genre "Ruby" was used in the later mandate and territorial colonies conflicts such as Syria and North Africa. During the Second World War they were used during the campaigns of 1939-40 and later by both the Free and Vichy French forces. After WWII they were once again employed in the wars in both Indochina and Algeria. Many of these pistols were surrendered or captured during the War in Indochina and were used by the Viet-Cong and North Vietnamese Army during the Vietnam War.
    These pistols were also delivered to Italy, Greece, Romania, Serbia and Russia during the First World War. After the First World War France re-built many of these pistols and sold them to the various newly created nations such as Poland and Finland.

    Accessories
    Holsters
    There were two different types of holsters used by the French Army for these weapons, the Etui modèle 1916 and Cartouchière porte pistolet modèle 1888 modifié 1915.
    • The Mle.1916 was made from heavy leather and is constructed in the form of a right triangle. One piece forms the back and folds over as the protective front flap; another is used for the front. A flexible strip of leather is used between the two forming the sides, an elongation of the strip forms a small flap at the left side and a longer extension on right side helps protect the interior. A small strip was either sewn or riveted on to the left side of the holster that runs diagonally across which fastened to a metal stud on the lower front of the flap, closing the holster. A wire loop was sometimes attached to the back of the holster which is then secured to a J-hook of the Y-straps used to hold it firmly in place from slipping when it was placed on the waist belt. Some of these holsters had metal D-rings attached to the sides or rear of the holster for a shoulder strap. On the inside left corner are two magazine pouches. The holsters were marked one or two ink stampings signifying the manufacturer and receiving military facility. Sometimes these were marked to various units they went to.
    • The Mle.1888/1915 was shaped like the standard rectangular leather infantry pouch but slightly larger in size with the wire loop described above. On the inside rear left side were two magazine pouches. These holsters were also marked with the one or three ink stampings. These holsters were normally only issued to Mle.1915 CSRG gunners and assistants and were worn on the back attached to the waist belt and Y-straps.

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic7.jpg

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic8.jpg

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic9.jpg

    Lanyards
    There were two different types of lanyards used by the French Army for these weapons.
    • A standard pre-WWI regulation leather revolver lanyard was used. The lanyard was about 29 inches long (74.9cm) and 7/16 inch wide (1.1cm). The loop end of the lanyard was closed by a brass rivet and was intended to be attached to the belt. The other end was secured to the pistol by means of a hard leather knot that runs through a slit at the end of the strap. These were normally left in the natural leather but occasionally were dyed black.
    • The second type lanyard used was of post-WWI design which was almost identical to the above mentioned type but the ends were closed by means of either a brass rivet or sewn together. A metal snap and D-Ring was used enabling it to be fastened to the staple on the heel of the butt. These were normally left in the natural leather but occasionally were dyed black or white.

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic10.jpg

    Cleaning Kit
    The standard cleaning kit called Nécassaires d'armes modèle 1874 which was originally designed for the Revolver d’Ordnance Modèle 1873 was used for this pistol. It consisted of the following items:
    • Grease box (boîte à graisse): This is a two part tin container with double sided hinged lids. In one compartment grease is stored and in the other a brass string-pull through section (ficelle individuelle de nettoyage) along with extra small bits of rag was stored.
    • Cleaning brush (brosse de armes)
    • Cleaning kit container (boitier du nècessaire) and oilier (huiler): This hollow steel container is where all the smaller tools are stored, such as the double headed screwdriver (tournevis) and the grease and oil mixing tool (spatule curette) which was flattened on one side and doubled as a carbon scraper. Both of these tools are stored in small black, brown or navy blue pouch called a truss (trousse) which has separate dividers to place the tools in so that when they are stored in the container they will not slip through the slot in the top. The top of the container has a slot on the top where the screwdriver fits into so that it may be used as a handle. The bottom is the oil container which has a plug that can be unscrewed with a small leather washer on it to prevent it from leakage. The post-war kits also contained in them an articulated bore brush (ècouvillon articulé) which was tied to the string pull through section and pulled through the barrel and a pin punch (chasse-goupilles) to help drive out the different pins in the weapon. These containers were often serialized as to keep track of them.

    http://www.milsurps.com/~badger/PistoletAutomatiquepic11.jpg

    Who They Were Issued To
    According to the 1917 and 1918 regulation French Infantry Squad Leader's Handbooks (Manuel de Chef de Section d'Infanterie) it says that the "Ruby" Pistol was issued to Telephonists, Stretcher Bearers, Mle.1915 CSRG gunners and assistants, and 37mm Mortar Crew. In the 1918 manual it also lists them being issued to Tank Crewmen.

    Characteristics:
    The pistol is an semi-automatic loaded weapon, the barrel is fixed and rests in the slide
    It is divided in two parts:
    The first is the stationary one which composes of the following, the barrel, the frame and trigger mechanism
    The other is moving which composes of the following, the slide and recoil spring and guide.
    Precautions to take: Turns out these guns present a common danger, which has caused many serious accidents. Do not believe that the weapon is unloaded because one withdrew the magazine; because a cartridge can still remain in the barrel. It therefore is necessary the extract the round from the barrel. Then, only, the weapon is emptied.

    ################################################################

    AA: Azanza y Arrizabalaga, "Modelo 1916" is the spanish translation for the Basque
    azaiizay arrizabalaga- modelo 1916


    the site i got this was trimming all these and so this is a copy but the page is gone now as are the other excellent information that was there
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2010
  4. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Good info, but one point. I only know a few words of Basque, but I think Azanza y Arrizbalaga is the name of a company, that is the names of the owners, not Basque words. ("y" means "and" in Spanish). The pistols themselves are marked "AZANZA Y ARRIZBALAGA MODELO 1916/EIBAR (ESPAÑA).

    Jim
  5. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    Jim correct

    spanish and basque are very similar ( in most parts no difference) the ii = n in the name.. and what drew my attention

    to keep the peace the spanish used to allow the basque to have a lot of stuff in their spelling until i forget when , they cracked down on them to force them to be spanish
    the Basque Policia had these issued , i'm wondering if that why the Basque spelling on that pistol

    post ww1 but before the spanish crackdown on the basque folks maybe
  6. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    Learn something new every day, I wasn't aware that there were any Basque gun makers in the Eibar region. I know they are very effective at making bombs, but unaware of any Eibar connection.:confused:
  7. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

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    the book spanish firearms and their history states up to 80% of all firearm manufacturers are in the Eibar reigion

    from another source

    Eibar is a city and municipality within the province of Gipuzkoa, in the Basque Country of Spain. The city was chartered by Alfonso XI of Castile in 1346. Its chief industry since the 16th century has been the manufacture of armaments, particularly finely engraved small arms.
    The city is home to the SD Eibar football team who (as of 2009/10) play in the Segunda División B.
    Eibar is one of the major industrial cities in the Basque country, known for its weapons and its metal mills (specifically steel and iron). Eibar is also known to scooter enthusiasts as the home of Serveta scooters.

    cheers
  8. RJay

    RJay Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, learn something new every day, I just never equated the Basques with handgun making, no reason, somehow it just never connected the dots in my head.
  9. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Hi, Jack404,

    I think you are confusing Basque with Catalán, which is spoken further east around Barcelona. Its roots are in Spanish and French and it does share words with Spanish. (American tourists are often confused or amused by Catalán references to a visit some years back by a Pope "Joan" - the Spanish Juan or English John is "Joan" in Catalán.)

    Basque, on the other hand, has no known connections with any other language, ancient or modern. It is spoken primarily in Gipúzkoa province around Tolosa and Eibar. Geographically, the Basque country is in Spain and France, along the west end of the Pyrenees mountains. The French Basque region is also an arms making area; Hendaye is right in the middle, and Bayonne is just to the north.

    If you are curious, Google "Basque" or "Eibar" and look at those mindboggling strings of mixed up consonants; that is Basque. Though most people in the area speak Spanish, there are few borrowings from that language, and Basque and Spanish speakers cannot even begin to understand each other.

    [Edited to add:] In fact, in Basque, Basque isn't even called Basque, it is called Euskara.

    BTW, we usually pronounce the name "Eibar" as "eye-bar"; it would more accurately be "ay-ee-bar", with the first syllable rhyming with "day" (as pronunced in U.S. English).

    Jim
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2010
  10. belercous

    belercous Former Guest

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    Jim; you know some stuff. Fairly esoteric and ecclectic. Was not expecting that. I know the Basques have a language unrelated to, well, anything. I'm not sure of their ethnicity. Are they descended from the muslims in pre 1492 Spain? Or are they older than that? They've always been somewhat of an enigma to western culture. Just curious.
  11. armedandsafe

    armedandsafe Guest

    There have been Basque remains unearthed in Neolithic era digs in that area, so it would be difficult to tie them to the invasions of the 13th Century. :D

    This is an interesting site speaking to that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

    Pops
  12. grampawmike

    grampawmike New Member

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    Location:
    Mojave Desert, CA
    OK guys, just the observations of an old man.....Back when I was a kid (damn near 60 years ago), we had Spanish Basque sheepherders move their flocks thru our 160 acres of alfalfa (in California) durring the winter time. They'd run their flocks over 300 miles to a final destination, hitting every piece of pasture and alfalfa farm they could en route. This produced a little cash to the farmer and also removed the requirement for us to have to run a disc harrow over the entire place to break down the 'crown' on mature alfalfa plants. (the hard crown, if too tall can screw up a sickle bar mower) That saved us a pile of cash and work. These guys spoke a sort of spanish dialect that I had never heard, nor have heard since they quit the program.....probably because of too damn many people. It was spansh.....but not spanish. Mike
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2010
  13. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Hi, Grampawmike,

    If they were speaking Basque, it sure wasn't Spanish, or any dialect of it. The languages are totally different, and don't even sound alike. It is sort of like the difference between, say, Italian and Chinese. You don't have to understand either to know they are not the same.

    But there were also sheepherders in the U.S. from Cataluña (Catalonia); if they were speaking Catalán, then it would sound, as you say, like Spanish but not Spanish; a Spanish speaker will understand a lot of it.

    As to the origins of the Basque language, I don't know if there have been any recent developments in research, but AFAIK no one knows. It is not Indo-European, and doesn't seem to have any Latin roots. Basically, your guess is as good as mine.

    (Boy, did this thread wander off track. I apologize for my part in that.)

    Jim
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2010
  14. supahsoldier2000

    supahsoldier2000 New Member

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    Dec 2, 2010
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    3
    Location:
    tennessee
    ok i have a 7_65 model 1913 automatic "ruby" pistol. "Stosel" number 1 patent. I have found alot of information regarding where it was made, used, etc... but nothing on the value! Could someone please help!!
  15. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    All those "Ruby" pistols fall into the $75-150 range, with an exceptionally nice one going for $200 or so, more if with the accessories. The problems are that many are broken, missing parts, or in poor condition. The original quality varies from good to somewhere below awful, with Gabilondo, the original contractor, probably the best or at least close to it.

    The French were desperate and took anything that would shoot and after WWI some of the makers continued to produce pistols of the same general type again of varying quality.

    Jim
  16. Max Donovan

    Max Donovan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    101
    Just a quick note: Eibar is pronounced with a long "A" like Kaybar. I have been there. I asked a city guide if they pronounced it A-bar or Eye-Bar. He said that only Germans and Americans say eye-bar. Say it right, but be prepared to take a ration of s**t from your friends. Enjoy, Max
  17. SinatraNate

    SinatraNate New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    I have a "Stosel No. 1 Patent" 7.65 Ruby with a maker's mark of "S" on the left side above the trigger guard. Can anyone tell me the manufacturer? I have seen previous posts regarding maker's marks for these pistols, but none with the "S" mark explained. I have little knowledge as to where I should be looking for this, and the local gun range owner couldn't find the pistol in his big book of guns. (Perhaps he wasn't as competent as I first thought...) Please help!
  18. hrf

    hrf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Welcome to the forum.

    Pistols of the World (Hogg & Weeks) lists Stosel as one of many brand names used by Retolaza Hermanos of Eibar.

    Is the S near the safety?
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  19. Lanrezac

    Lanrezac Active Member

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    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The only reference book I have at hand, "Pistols of the World" by Ian Hogg and John Weeks, attributes the Stosel pistol to Retolaza Hermanos of Eibar.

    The name Stosel apparently comes from a Russian general who's name is usually spelled Stossel in English. He was briefly famous during the Russo-Japanese war of 1904-1905, so your pistol may well pre-date the First World War.

    According to the book, the Retolaza company disappeared during the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939. They appear to have made average quality guns by Eibar standards, which were fairly low. The "S" could mean anything, or nothing.

    HTH!
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  20. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

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    Like hrf, I think the "S" stands for "safe" (or the Spanish equivalent, seguro) and indicates the safe position of the safety lever.

    Jim
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