WW2 Walther PPK w/Swastika Grip

Discussion in 'The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Forum' started by bmw750, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

    Dec 6, 2009
    TTE, why would you think that grips made from soft plastic, warped and poorly fitting, with a crude depiction of an eagle with droopy wings, poor quality checkering and no ferrules, might not be original? Those grips are trash and anyone who would think them original would be very naive indeed.

    IMHO, the grips on bmw750's gun are genuine and original, and I suggest a comparison between those and the ones on *******.

    This is the same thing we see on other counterfeit Nazi items. I do NOT collect Nazi items in general, but make an exception for German guns with the markings of that era. But the workers and craftsmen of that time, regardless of their feelings toward the government, were German. The medals, guns, daggers, emblems, pins, etc. made for the NSDAP or the government were of the uniform high quality of craftsmanship associated with Germany, then and now. There have been a few high quality fakes, but in general it is almost laughingly easy to tell a genuine product of that era from the crude junk made in the third world and sold in the U.S. or elsewhere. (The use of the Swastika is banned in Germany, so none of the trash with that marking comes from the original country.)

    Jim
     
  2. SSMN

    SSMN Member

    553
    Sep 24, 2009
    Ely, Minnesota
    Hard to tell without a full serial number, but if the first three numbers are 9007, then this gun is approx 1935 production. There were no black grips provided on PPKs until late in the war. Early grips such as provided in 1935 were brown marbeled with streaks of black.

    Second, there are many black Party Leader grips around and so far they have all proved to be counterfeit. While anything is possible, no black Party leader grips have been found and determined to be authentic to this point.

    This is what 1935 brown marbeled grips looked like with the necessary left to right screw. This one happens to be an RZM Muzzle Marked SS issue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012

  3. Lanrezac

    Lanrezac Well-Known Member

    Sep 18, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI
    SSMN, just to increase my poor stock of knowledge, does the PPK in your photo have what is called a 90-degree safety? Thanks in advance!
     
  4. SSMN

    SSMN Member

    553
    Sep 24, 2009
    Ely, Minnesota
    Lanrezak,
    Yes, the gun posted has a ninety degree safety. I will post pics of the sixty.
     
  5. SSMN

    SSMN Member

    553
    Sep 24, 2009
    Ely, Minnesota
    Sixty degree safety. 1937 production. Also SS issue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  6. Jim K

    Jim K New Member

    Dec 6, 2009
    OK, so bmw750's gun has fake grips. A better question for those who have large Walther collections would be: How do we tell genuine eagle grips? Or even genuine pre/wartime grips in general? What do the insides look like? What are the mold numbers or maker's code? Is it certain that all Walther grip screws went in from the right side? Do all Walther grips (except the wood ones and the PL grips) have the Walther banner? Do we know that there were no black PL grips or PPK grips until late in the war?

    I have no problem with declaring as fake such absurdities as those on that other site, or the cheap Franzite grips, but if those on the OP's gun are fakes, they appear to be good ones. Are they the late black grips you mention, put on an early gun, or just plain fakes made in the U.S. in recent years?

    This sort of thing can get interesting, but I think we need more info than just "so and so says"; even books are not always correct, as we all know.

    Walther grips would be an interesting area of study, possibly even worth a book in itself. One question for now - why are the grips on my PP RFV, which appear to be otherwise correct, without the Walther banner?

    Jim
     
  7. bmw750

    bmw750 New Member

    7
    Feb 27, 2012
    SSMN states "there are many black Party Leader grips around and so far they have all proved to be counterfeit. While anything is possible, no black Party leader grips have been found and determined to be authentic to this point."

    Again I ask: Is there a way to verify authenticity?
    Apparently, according to SSMN, there is a way to prove that my black Party Leader grips are counterfeit. If anyone knows how to prove authenticity one way or the other I'd be happy to try. I might even be persuaded to remove the grips and take as many photos as necessary if I were certain I could actually prove something, but I am not looking forward to doing that.
    Thanks for everyone's input.
     
  8. dcriner

    dcriner Member

    449
    Apr 18, 2011
    Illinois
    I would remove the grips, and see if there are telltale marks left on the frame by different, original grips with slightly different dimensional tolerances
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2012
  9. wonderwhippet

    wonderwhippet Active Member

    Jan 10, 2003
    bmw, if you think yopur grips are repros, I will trade you a set of original plain grips and give you $300 to boot.
     
  10. bmw750

    bmw750 New Member

    7
    Feb 27, 2012
    Appreciate the offer, it's looking like it will take me a while to determine one way or the other. Some kind folks on this site have been very helpful in that regard.
     
  11. Conman

    Conman Well-Known Member

    644
    Dec 30, 2010
    Eastern Iowa
    bmw750,

    You have a PM.
     
  12. bmw750

    bmw750 New Member

    7
    Feb 27, 2012
    Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
    I have uploaded two photos showing the interior of the black PM grip. I have tried to highlight the metal plates on the interior of the grip as well as other features.
    I would like to send these photos(as well as others) to Jim Rankin and Dieter Marshal and possibly others you may recommend.
    If you have contact information or if you can otherwise get me in touch with Jim Rankin or Dieter Marshal, I would very much appreciate it.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. bmw750

    bmw750 New Member

    7
    Feb 27, 2012
    SSMN,
    Thank you for the email address to Dieter Marshal and the link to the photo of the obviously fake black Party Leader grips. I'm pleased to know mine look so much better.
     
  14. denny 714

    denny 714 Member

    225
    Oct 5, 2010
    bmw750

    I am no expert either, but I would not be to quick to dismiss the fact that your black party leader grips may VERY WELL be the Real McCoy....I have a feeling they are the real deal.
    Best of luck with them....Do have them checked out by someone who is an expert !!!.....

    Denny G.
     
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