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You want armor?

Discussion in 'General Military Arms & History Forum' started by Guest, Mar 3, 2003.

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    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 122
    (10/23/01 3:10:01 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del All You want armor?
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    Google HAS armor:
    directory.google.com/Top/..._Vehicles/

    Rich

    17th FA Bn
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 41
    (10/23/01 8:33:04 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    The Israeli Merkava tank in some ways would be superior to our M-1.

    The 60mm mortar it carries would be of great use if you are fighting an enemy that is lightly armed, but has lots of personnel.

    It would make a great scout/cavalry vehicle. It has the heavy fire power of a tank. It carries it's own "light artillery" in the form of a 60mm mortar. It could carry it's own troops for dismounted scouting work. How many infantry men can it carry in addition to it's crew?

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1951
    (10/23/01 10:16:03 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    I don't know, 17, the Israelis and the Brits, and to a smaller extent the Germans, have the same philosophy for MBTs, they always pooh-poohed agility and speed in exchange for LR Main gun accuracy, and always taught firing when stopped so they could hit the eye of the gnat at 2 miles...

    They said the M1A1 wouldn't be effective in a "real" war,

    "Reforger" made them think, and "Desert Storm" made them start frantically rethinking, when they saw you COULD have both, speed AND accuracy, along with firing on the run.

    Some experts think the Brits and Israelis are just giving "lip service" to their old concept because they cannot AFFORD to build/buy new MBTs like the M1A3s... and since their only possible enemies have Russian crap that even the M60 can still handle, they need to save money.

    Plus, the "age of MBTs" is over anyway, Air-transportable Tanks and IFVs are the wave of the future... we probably will NEVER see an Armor Heavy Corps in action ever again....the 60mm MAY be an attempt to get more versatility from the MBTs, for Infantry support, plus the "Slow but Steady" Tank philosophy emphasizes more smoke use than does ours, because we think thermal imaging negates most cover smoke anyway....
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    the real fredneck
    Moderator
    Posts: 433
    (10/23/01 11:42:31 am)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    yeah but if you can't defend the skies the Warthog makes short work of any and all armor

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1954
    (10/23/01 12:46:16 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    And, crap. we even are using Hellfire missiles on unmanned recon DRONES for gosh sakes in Afghanistan, some Specialist with a joystick hundreds of miles away can engage MBTs when he FINDS them, instead of just calling it in and waiting...

    I bet THAT is making the Combat Pilot's Union nervous...some of them better start playing with their kids Playstation 2s a little more for job security...
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 123
    (10/23/01 2:26:37 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    warpig883
    Moderator
    Posts: 861
    (10/23/01 3:43:52 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    I am not so sure about the demise of a nig old fashsioned tank battle. What I am fairly sure about is we will never see a big naval battle as in ships against ships.
    Don't mind me, I am a blithering idiot:)

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1961
    (10/23/01 5:09:08 pm)
    Reply | Edit | Del Re: You want armor?
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    Yeah, you can be sure Warpig, NOBODY can afford to field a large force based on modern MBTs except us, and maybe a few of our western allies, and with no one to fight, especially in the kind of actions we will HAVE to fight, quick, dirty, dance with what you got NOW not what we can ship there in 6 weeks, they are now redundant, expensive dinosaurs.

    Look what happened in Yugoslavia, fish out of water.

    The ONLY reason it worked in Desert Storm is we just happened to have all those Armored divisions available in Germany, not too far to ship, but we do NOT have them in those numbers any more, don't kid yourself.

    Saddam screwed up on his timing, if he waited a year or two he would have been better off, but not by much.

    Warfare has changed, again. MBTs are History, just like horsed cavalry, but you will see established, prominent Generals and "experts" denying it for another 20 years or more, just like they did the Horse...there's "glamour" in tanks...the horsed cavalry was finished before 1914, except in Russia, but even in 1939, US and many other nations thought it was still a viable weapon.

    There will STILL be some sort of Armor, but mostly IFVs and Air Transportable "light" armor, but no "Armored Divisions" any more. Ok, maybe one or two, just to say we have them, but if I was a young Armor officer, I'd be getting my wings soon, there's no future in Armor.

    The role of the MBT is now the role of the Attack Helicopter, no matter who doesn't accept it yet....and in reality, the cavalry concept is back, nothing is new under the sun.

    China is the ONLY antagonist with massed tanks, but even they understand they are dated...our "force multiplier" tactics and weapons would overwhelm them quickly in a conventional war, with little or no tank vs. tank action.

    Warfare evolves, like anything else, tanks were developed to bring mobility back to the "static" battlefield dominated by MGs and Artillery, now they themselves are the static battlefield compared to what is happening around them, and the Helicopter is doing what armor did from 1917-18 to 1991. In the future, "great offensives" will be measured in hundreds or thousands of kilometers advanced per day, not 40-50 like with Armor.
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915
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