Zip ties and the Gun Show

Discussion in 'The Constitutional & RKBA Forum' started by ysacres, Mar 6, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member

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    EvilAudio
    Member
    Posts: 15
    (1/19/03 2:56:25 pm)
    Reply Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    So I'm at my local Gun Show here in ol' Mizzoorah and I'm sifting through Nagants. I find me a nice little numbers matching 38(?) sniper with a 1940 date stamp and nice Russian markings. Looks legit enough for me, but I want to take a gander at the bore. So I grap her up and attempt to take off this zip tie that's holding the bolt closed. The guy behind the table goes bonkers like I'm muzzle sweeping someone with a loaded firearm or something. "Hey man, YOU CAN"T TAKE THAT OFF!"
    "Why not?"
    "It's the GODDAMN LAW, THAT"S WHY!"
    "Well, how in the F@*# am I supposed to eyeball the bore, genius?!?!"
    "You don't need to, I don't sell junk!"
    "Sure you do, or you'd let my look down the bore."
    "Don't buy it then."
    "Go F@*# yerself."


    Anyone have an experience like this at the gun show? What gives. When did this horse[dung] start? Anyone?.....????
    "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett

    Edited by: EvilAudio at: 1/19/03 3:06:06 pm

    cointoss 2
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1225
    (1/19/03 3:36:00 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Well EvilAudio, I would have asked first, but if he was a jerk about it, there are more out there. I'm with you I would have been going to the next dealer and cheking their pieces.
    cointoss2

    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1378
    (1/19/03 8:59:03 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    The guy's just jerkin yer chain, thatz all.

    Ya did the rite thing by leavin him alone with his tied up collection of bang bangs.






    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3654
    (1/19/03 9:20:34 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Ah - contrair me amigos!

    Evil Audio - where in Missouri were you? A lot of areas around here now have local ordnances that require that the guns be tied - it pisses me off to no end, and I hate it, but at some shows I am forced to have all the guns on my table tied. If the table holder removes the tie, he is in violation and subject to prosecution himself! Check out the circumstances before flying off on this issue.

    Frankly, I have quit setting up at those areas/shows, but even the ones I set up at now there are rumblings that this particular requirement may be coming around. It is one more weapon in the arsenal of the anti-gunners.

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 917
    (1/20/03 9:24:46 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    What's the logic behind tying the bolt shut? To prevent someone from loading it and shooting people? Has that been a problem in Missouri?

    Can you not leave the bolt out entirely, and tie it to the barrel? Or package it separately?

    I wouldn't buy a gun at a show that I couldn't look down the bore of. That seems like a STUPID law.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3656
    (1/20/03 10:53:41 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Yup. Welcome to stupid laws. That is why I don't set up at those shows. Yes you could remove the bolt, but then the person looking at the rifle would not be allowed to put the bolt in the rifle - so you wouldn't be able to see if the bolt fits and works.

    Frankly, what I did was tie the bolt in an open position, or left the tie loose enough you could pull the bolt back. That was a poor show, because folks just looked and went on. I agree, totally rediculous.

    This all stems from the fear that some whacko will come into a show and slip a live round in a gun and shoot someone. From what I heard from one show promoter, it is a combination of local ordinance and insurance requirements.

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 920
    (1/20/03 12:02:26 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Oh, it's making sense now. After that shooting last year, I had heard that the major insurance carrier was going to abandon the gun show scene. Maybe this is a new requirement on their part to prevent another accident like that.

    It's another case of one bad apple spoiling the whole bunch.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    stan741
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 55
    (1/20/03 1:19:16 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    The bad thing about the young man getting shot at the gun show in Atlanta was that the dealer who discharged the firearm was NOT a gun dealer.He was a holster dealer and attempted to show the father of the young man who was shot how his personal carry gun would fit in the holster.
    My personal rant on this subject is one I have been going on about for a long time.WHY does a gun dealer at a gun show have to carry a loaded weapon? It is stupid.Are they gonna shoot into the crowd if someone tries to steal something?The whole thing of dealers carrying a loaded weapon at a gun show is simply a matter of feeding their own personal macho ego."I'm carrying a gun so I'm more macho than you".
    With all of the excellent law enforcement types that are usually in attendance at any gun show a thief would be nuts to try and grab and run.Add to that the mentality of the people who attend gun shows.I don't think a thief would get five steps.People who attend gun shows and gun afficianiados are not by nature "stand by and watch" type of people.Also people who attend gun shows are decent types who would not grab something not theirs.The kind of people who do this are not attending gun shows,they are out casing places to rob.
    The whole problem is the overall mentality of the promoters who allow and the dumbass dealers who wanna show their fragile egos off by carrying a loaded weapon unnecessarily.
    Many dealers are friends of mine and are fine people.These are the more sensible types who do not insist on a weapon at their side.It is the dumb butts such as the holster dealer in Atlanta who stand the greatest chance of killing gunshows.The old cartoon character "Pogo Possum" said it best."We have met the enemy and they is us".
    As long as we tolerate what we perceive as irresponsible behavior in our own actions within the gun community AND elect the offficials who are not progun we are going to be on the losing end of the stick with dimishing freedoms and opportunities.If you see someone doing something you know is not right tell them or do something about it.If you are an educated and careful voter you will elect the man who will support us and preserve the freedoms our forefathers intended for us and fought for.I love this hobby.I will do all I can to preserve it.We all should.
    The more I listen, the more I hear......and vice versa.


    Edited by: stan741 at: 1/20/03 1:21:56 pm

    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1849
    (1/20/03 1:50:44 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Stan -

    You have some valid points there, and I totally agree with you. I've often thought how silly it was for a person behind the tables to have a firearms strapped to them as if it would intimidate someone. Most dealers have cables or other means to secure the firearm to the table, anyway. Those that don't are usually eyeballing anyone that picks up a firearm from their table, along with everyone standing in the area. The wearing of loaded firearms by ANYONE in the gunshow shouldn't be allowed.

    In my area, you aren't allowed to bring ammo into the show. All firearms are inspected and tied prior to entering. You are given a choice of bolt open or bolt closed. Same with handguns. Sounds sorta dumb when loaded ammo is sold inside and you'll see prospective dealers/buyers slip out small sidecutters or knives to cut the plastic tie, inspect the firearm, then re-tie.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    mckheean
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 119
    (1/20/03 5:14:14 pm)
    Reply Ties
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    Two months ago I was at my local show,when people came in two ladies where putting ties on the new arrivals.Guess what (bang).Someone brought a loaded rifle to the show.I was only about 20 feet from the door when it discharged and scared the poop out of me.Everyone in the show started ducking behind the tables.I also collect new in the box Pythons and Diamondback's that have never been turned.One day a man while I was not looking cut the tie and started dry firing a Python also marking the cylinder.Now how mad do you think I got.If he would have asked I would have cut the tie and moved the clyinder out so he could cock it.Benny

    coloradofiveo
    Member
    Posts: 7
    (1/21/03 2:28:34 am)
    Reply Re: Ties
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    Sometimes I think the vendors at our gun shows are more stupid than the visitors. Lots of crap. We have the zip tie rule too.

    Shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 95
    (1/21/03 11:34:14 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Shall not be infringed, shall not be infringed.
    What part of shall not be infringed don't they
    or us understand ?

    PERCEPTION IS REALITY !

    www.gcnlive.com

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 931
    (1/21/03 1:07:59 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Well, considering the absolute ineptness of some people to safely carry or inspect a firearm, I'm not too uneasy with the zip tie requirement at gunshows. As long as it doesn't interfere with my ability to look at what I'm buying.

    I'm all for reasonable safety precautions when there are a lot of people with a lot of guns nearby. The same applies at a firing range. Not a zip-tie requirement, but reasonable rules to ensure that nobody gets accidentally shot.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Shizamus
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 97
    (1/21/03 3:02:37 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    This is nothing short of conditioning and
    behavior modofication. Just a few years ago
    we would not even be thinking about trivial
    things like that, but today it is a major issue ?
    And "We The Sheeple" just let it happen
    incrimentaly, the old boiling frog theory.
    Sheeple that want to participate willingly
    end up making concessions and say 'well
    it's not such a bad idea. When you keep moving
    the line in the sand it's called compromising.
    So it is clear that the other side is winning
    with our help.


    PERCEPTION IS REALITY !

    www.gcnlive.com

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 937
    (1/21/03 3:38:02 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Well, the shooting in Atlanta last year did a LOT more to hurt the cause than this. I'd rather do the "right" thing and be safe, than risk another public relations nightmare that would risk shutting down all gunshows from public outcry.

    It's not a matter of compromising freedom, it's a matter of being safe and responsible. Since people apparently can't do it on their own, someone has decided that zip ties is the solution. Yes, we're all being punished for the actions of a select few, and I don't like it. But if they can make a solution that doesn't affect the way people go about inspecting and purchasing firearms, then I don't see the harm.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    EvilAudio
    Member
    Posts: 16
    (1/22/03 2:26:22 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Ok ...so some kids gets shot by A VENDOR, who was fooling with his OWN PERSONAL firearm.
    So now I am forced to buy a firearm based on faith and trust in it's condition?
    Now, I'm a BIG fan of common sense. That being said, wouldn't it make more sense to just have vendors not carry loaded firearms? Did I miss something here?
    This seems a bit like selling cars without letting the potential buyer crack open the hood and give a look-see because a salesman ran some poor kid over. Not the customer's fault. The cause isn't matching the effect here.
    Maybe my logic is flawed and the lawmakers know all. What do I know, I just do my job as a drone producing for The Man.
    That vendor with the Nagant was still a d!@&#*4 though.
    "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett

    stan741
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 59
    (1/24/03 8:02:06 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    You are entirely correct ,the vendor with the Nagant was a dipstick.
    But that is a different thing entirely from the idiots carrying loaded weapons just cause thet are big bad ass dealers.
    The more I listen, the more I hear......and vice versa.


    ibtrukn
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1642
    (1/25/03 8:28:23 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    EA , luv the last line in yur 1st post, dat plays big aroun here!!. Myself, I encourage the dudes to pikemup an take out bolt if they want...just about anything short of field stripping. Yeah a New tie must cost ah umm wweelll maybe 2cents?? just my 2 cents

    JackRyann
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 143
    (1/25/03 8:36:55 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    The whole problem has been coming down the pike for years.

    Everytime you see someone do something stupid and turn away with a smug grin or a wink you've let it slip in more.

    It's time hunters and responsible gun owners stopped sugar coating ignorance and CALL IT OUT in a loud, PUBLIC voice.

    Next time you pull into the public parking to hunt some public ground and there he is. The proverbial week end warrior, idiot who picks up his gun the evening before for his annual deer hunt. At noon there he is back at camp sighting in to figure out why he missed.

    Call him out for the fool he is. There is reason people don't hunt on the shooting range. The hunting ground is NOT a target range.

    Waving a gun around at a gun show snapping the trigger is the dumbest thing and the main reason I NEVER go to them any more. Gun shops the same thing practicly. First thing what do they do? If you are a dealer you know darn well what I'm saying. How many times have you heard the hammer drop only to look over and some fool with out 2 dollars in his pocket is drooling over a gun he was pointing straight at ya and pulling the trigger?
    --44 mag, when you're ready to get serious--

    EvilAudio
    Member
    Posts: 18
    (1/25/03 11:52:04 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    I know what you mean. I was at the local indoor range/ gun shop looking at a Springfield noticing these "Gang Bangers" looking at pistols. It would have been OK if they had any clue what they wanted or were looking at. They kept asking to look at "Nine Millies" and speaking as though anything else was junk. Yeah whatever, we all know about a 9mm's reputation for blowing people through walls. And the pistols they were looking at were complete crap.
    Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I had this urge to tell them to get the [blank] out of the store right then and there. It's not my place so I kept my fool mouth shut. After they left, I asked the owner if he gets alot of those guys. He replied "Yeah, I get a BUTTLOAD of "those guys"".
    But yes, I know what you mean about Window Shopping empty pocketed gomers.
    Sorry, I'm getting a bit off topic.

    Damn zip ties.
    "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett

    stan741
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 60
    (1/28/03 12:58:01 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Last Sunday I was at home spending some quality time with the wife.There was a gun show in Spartanburg,SC.These shows always close at 4PM on Sunday.Bout 2:30 a friend calls and says let's go to the gun show.By the time we get there it will be 3PM and we will have about an hour.Small show.Easy to do in an hour.Not particularly looking for anything.Made two rounds of all the tables.Saw something I liked,bought it.Looking for my buddy and walk by a holster dealer.The dumb butt is in camo and packing a sidearm.Holster dealer.MMMM.Flashback to the happening in Atlanta.
    I walked over and asked him if his sidearm was loaded.Yes,it is he replied.Wanna see it?
    I just shook my head and walked off,found my buddy and left.I will never go to a gun show put on by Land of The Sky Gunshows ever again.
    When are the dumbass promoters and dealers gonna learn?I have come to the conclusion they just freaking don't or won't care.

    The more I listen, the more I hear......and vice versa.


    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1436
    (1/28/03 3:23:05 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    stan 741 -

    Why don't you get ahold of the gun show promoters, www.mikekentshows.com/ (who is the parent organization for Land of the Sky Gun Shows) and tell them what you experienced with this dealer at one of their sponsored shows?

    Express your concerns and tell them that in the interest of personal safety you and all your friends will not attend, and you and your friends will encourage everyone you know not to attend, future gun shows until loaded firearms by both exhibitors and visitors is taken care of.

    Try not to make it sound like a threatening letter; rather express real concern for safety; and if you need cite the incident at the Atlanta show as an example.

    In fact, if anyone reading this is interested in contacting a promoter regarding a matter, here is a link to the National Association of Arms Shows, Inc., with a variety of promotors you can contact if interested. http://www.naas-info.org/Arms_shows_links.htm

    Regards







    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3693
    (1/28/03 3:37:13 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    I never keep a loaded firearm at a show; but I have a nice medievel morning star under the table. Nothing like a little blunt force trama to get their attention!

    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 986
    (1/28/03 3:45:26 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    I understand the safety issue, really I do. But I can't understand how we gun owners can be so scared of other people with loaded weapons.

    After all, aren't we supposed to promote concealed carry laws? Aren't we supposed to support the right to keep and bear arms? What kind of signal do we send when we say we're scared to go to a gunshow because (gasp!) people have loaded weapons?

    I'm not picking on any certain person here, I'm just saying that we might be doing the anti's a favor by making people leave their sidearms at home or unloaded.

    I'm in favor of everyone being allowed to walk down Main Street USA with loaded firearms... an armed society is a polite society and all that stuff. Reasonable safety precautions need to be taken at gun shows, but I don't like the argument that "you don't need a loaded weapon at a gun show". That sounds a lot like the anti-gun rhetoric of "you don't need a gun".

    Sorry, that's my opinion on the matter.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    Bob In St Louis
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3695
    (1/28/03 4:15:31 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Well, I think the gunshows should be limited to paint ball guns and those stupid Soft Shot or whatever you call them. Then folks can come in and just shoot the heck out of each other! I think that is just a wonderful learning experience, pointing guns at people for fun. Really teaches the correct approach to firearms safety.

    stan741
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 61
    (1/28/03 5:20:52 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    1952 Sniper.You have a very valid point. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed upon.
    I am all for "carry" privileges.
    You and I or anybody else can hang around all the time with each other "carrying".
    But.....the first time you STUPIDLY screw up and shoot somebody you and I ain't gonna be hanging around together anymore.
    The people I hang around with, I know they are gun savvy.A dumbass who tells you his gun is loaded and asks if you want to see it is just that...a dumbass.
    There are times and places for everything and a crowded room isn't the place to carry a loaded weapon.If I am in a location where I fear for my safety then I should be prepared for any eventuality.
    Carry it all you want but in certain places observe the highest form of safety..put the clip or the rounds in your pocket.
    Carry--YES! Safely and responsibility--YES!

    Bob,thanks for the address.I do intend to utilize it.

    The more I listen, the more I hear......and vice versa.


    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1437
    (1/28/03 5:31:53 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    1952Sniper



    Quote:
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    I understand the safety issue, really I do. But I can't understand how we gun owners can be so scared of other people with loaded weapons.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I am not scared of other people with loaded weapons; however, I am deeply concerned with the extent of safety consciousness they possess with the weapon they are carrying. I am sure of my own safety practices, and I am positive of the safety practices of a few of my friends. Those in my acquaintance of whom I am questionable regarding their sense of safety are politely asked to unload all weapons in my presence. I reciprocate by unloading my weapon. Until such time as I feel comfortable with their safety consciousness, this is how the situation remains.


    Quote:
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    After all, aren't we supposed to promote concealed carry laws? Aren't we supposed to support the right to keep and bear arms? What kind of signal do we send when we say we're scared to go to a gunshow because (gasp!) people have loaded weapons?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Your first two sentences are absolutely correct and these two aspects of firearms ownership should be endorsed whole heartedly at every opportunity. As to the loaded weapon issue, I would offer that rather than countering a "right to carry" issue, we bring forth and espouse a high degree of concern of safety issues while carrying a weapon.

    Attendees, or visitors if you will, at gun shows are not allowed to carry loaded weapons inside. Why? Safety issues. Promoters (and insurance companies) do not want "accidents" of any consequence and attempt to reduce such with their attendee/visitor policy. So, then, - what makes the "vendors" at these shows any better than the attendees - Nothing - Nada - not a darn thing. They are just as fallible to safety issues and accidents as anyone. What is the problem with them reciprocating this safety issue?


    Quote:
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    but I don't like the argument that "you don't need a loaded weapon at a gun show". That sounds a lot like the anti-gun rhetoric of "you don't need a gun".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    So why DO you need a loaded gun at a gun show. Somebody lifts something from a table, what'chu gonna do shoot em? I DON'T THINK SO. This is not like the anti-gun rhetoric of "you don'"t need a gun", it's more like a responsible gun owner exhibiting the highest concerns and safety regards for himself, his customers and other visitors as well.

    The only reason I can see for a vendor to carry a loaded weapon at a gun show is vanity. They are in effect saying that they are better than you because they can "carry" and you can't. And the subliminal message is that because they are better than you, you should believe anything and everything they say about firearms

    That's how I see it.






    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 988
    (1/28/03 5:49:12 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    Quote:
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    As to the loaded weapon issue, I would offer that rather than countering a "right to carry" issue, we bring forth and espouse a high degree of concern of safety issues while carrying a weapon.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    That's the point I was trying to make. It shouldn't be an issue of WHERE we're allowed to carry. It should be a safety issue, making sure people carry responsibly.

    As for your question on why I need a gun at a gun show... I don't! But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to carry one there. If we open up the issue of only allowing people to carry guns where they NEED them, then we might as well just leave them at home all the time. It's not about needing them. It's about the freedom to have them and carry them wherever we want. I don't need a gun to go to the local grocery store, but I think I should be allowed to carry one anyway.

    Again, I go back to the safety thing. I'm all in favor of firearms training and safety training. If people would carry responsibly and act like adults, then most of our problems would go away.

    Stan, I agree 100% that the guy was an idiot to offer a loaded handgun to a stranger. People like that need some serious training and/or an infusion of common sense. But I just can't agree that other responsible adults should be banned from carrying a firearm because of a few idiots.

    After all, what's the real difference between a gunshow and any other place? If someone stupid is carrying a loaded weapon, we're all at risk anyway. Why change the rules for a gunshow?
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    stan741
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 63
    (1/29/03 7:44:51 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    1952 sniper, I have already answred your question.Carry where ever you want.But in some cases follow the course of highest integrity and safety and remove the clip or rounds and put them in your pocket.
    Then when you leave the warm and fuzzy atmosphere of the gun show and have to walk to your car through that dark lonely parking lot -reload.
    I would carry every day if every where I went was fraught with possible danger.Hell, I just like feeling it on my hip.But I follow the dictates of common sense and safety and in some places unload and others I realize I just don't need it.
    BUT-what we are talking about here is getting diluted.It is not so much the right to carry but the REASON some dumbass dealers do when they don't need to.AND- it was said above it all boils down to their need to be on an ego trip and feel superior or try to make others feel inferior.
    If you remember the movie"Dances with Wolves" then you remember the old indian who having had his say states"That's all I have to say about that".
    Well--that's all I have to say about this.
    The more I listen, the more I hear......and vice versa.


    tuckerd1
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1442
    (1/29/03 10:07:19 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    I didn't see in Stan's post where he was offered to see a loaded weapon.


    Quote:
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    I walked over and asked him if his sidearm was loaded.Yes,it is he replied.Wanna see it?
    I just shook my head and walked off,found my buddy and left.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    The man asked if he wanted to see his weapon. The offer was refused. Where does it say the "loaded weapon" was offered? It appears the man was being friendly and was offering another gun enthusiast the opportunity to see his weapon. Should the offer had been accepted, would he have unloaded and then handed offer the weapon for inspection? Dunno, because it never got that far.

    Should we be cautious around someone carrying a weapon "loaded or unloaded?" Definately! Should everyone be disarmed because we don't know them? Absolutely not!!

    I believe if a person has a legal right to carry concealed, by a CCW or whatever means that government requires, then that person should be allowed to carry it anywhere. What happens when a person is confronted by a person meaning to do them harm, while enroute to and from this so called "no loaded guns or no guns period" allowed area? That person may be left without a means to defend themselves.

    I have this problem where I work on a US Army post. We are not allowed to bring firearms on post except when going to and from "hunting areas." You are not allowed to have in your vehicle or on your person any firearms while on the post. I drive 42 miles each way to work and could possibly be exposed to some dangerous situations. But, because of this rule, my only defense is my feet or my wheels. Hope they work quick enough!



    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1444
    (1/29/03 3:44:07 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
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    tuckered 1-

    The statement stan741 made concerning the loaded weapon incident at the gun show is contained in his second post on page two of the thread, just under my post recommending he contact the show promoters with his concerns.

    Just reading the sentence: I walked over and asked him if his sidearm was loaded.Yes,it is he replied.Wanna see it?"(my emphasis added) indicates and verifies the vendor was offering the loaded weapon for "seeing".

    Not one individual responding to this post has even insinuated that we be "disarmed" in any fashion. I guess it all boils down to personal interpretation(s) of the written word. Rather than "disarm" we are advocating extreme caution in the presence or others, and in this case (at a gunshow) a large gathering of people in a confined space.

    What are the dangers at a gunshow? Is someone going to attempt to rob a vendor? Is anyone going to heist something somewhere in the room? Will one of the attendees be held up at gunpoint during the show? Hopefully not!! Even the dumbest crook is smart enough not to try a heist with 1 - 2 - or 300 people in the same room. Again, what are the dangers at a gun show? The real dangers are idiot vendors who feel the need to be superior than those around them. All it takes is one little mistake to cause a catastrophe; and terrible incidents have happened.

    What is the real need to be condition one, locked and loaded in the confines of a room full of friendly people of similar interests pursuing economic transactions, many of whom may be close friends, acquaintenances and/or family? AB SO LUT LY NONE!!! We carry weapons, either openly or concealed, for our protection and defense, not for ego trips.

    We are governed by laws as to certain places where we may and may not carry our weapons (hospitals, churches, establishments that serve alcoholic beverages, etc.) openly or concealed. Does this inhibit our Second Amendments rights? Technically yes; however the technicalities imposed by the laws of restriction are done so for the welfare, safety, and concern of everyone who goes into a hospital, church, etc.

    No one is recommending that any one "disarm" at any time. All that is being recommended is that, for certain occasions when safety is of the utmost importance and concern, everyone is treated fairly and equally and ALL weapons be temporarily unloaded.











    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 994
    (1/29/03 4:45:49 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but I'll reiterate one more time.....

    If we're asking a guy to disarm (unload, whatever.... same thing) just because he's in a room with a bunch of friendly people, then we are saying that he is unsafe simply because he is carrying a loaded weapon. My point is that if he's a danger there, then he's a danger everywhere! He's no more dangerous there than at a shopping mall.

    Forget the idea of not "needing" to be armed at a gunshow. That's not the point. The point is that if a guy is dangerous carrying a loaded weapon, then he's dangerous no matter where he goes. So either people need to be responsible at ALL times when carrying (including gunshows), or they need not carry at all. That is what I'm trying to say when I state that a gunshow shouldn't be any different than anywhere else.

    I fully agree that a gunshow is not the type of place where you need to wear a sidearm for personal protection. But anyone who carries a concealed handgun knows what a pain in the ass it is to have to leave your gun in the car or at home, due to all the various places that won't let you carry. You have to carefully plan where you go, so as to not break any rules. I, for one, am very uncomfortable leaving a firearm in my car, much less my saddlebags on my motorcycle. Why not just make people be responsible and let them carry anywhere they choose?

    If you think people are more dangerous at a gunshow just because there are a lot of people, then you need to seriously question whether ANYONE should be allowed to carry ANYWHERE.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1446
    (1/29/03 6:27:43 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1952sniper -


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If we're asking a guy to disarm (unload, whatever.... same thing) just because he's in a room with a bunch of friendly people, then we are saying that he is unsafe simply because he is carrying a loaded weapon. My point is that if he's a danger there, then he's a danger everywhere! He's no more dangerous there than at a shopping mall.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Just because we ask someone to ascribe to the highest of safety practices does not mean that they are dangerous, or that we consider them so. It merely requests and recommends a fail safe, fool proof, absolute, 100 per cent guaranteed situation where no accident can happen. Can ANYONE, ANYWHERE, at ANY TIME guarantee the same with a loaded firearm?

    No one is saying, asking or implying, that they not "carry", either openly or concealed. What is being discussed is the need to carry a loaded weapon in a confined space with a multitude of friendly people about. There is no need. If there were a need, both vendors and visitors to the gun show should be allowed to carry loaded weapons. But guess what, visitors CAN NOT carry a loaded weapon into a gun show ---- why? Safety reasons.

    Why are there more stringent safety precautions placed on the visitors at a gun show than the vendors? Why is it part of the crowd has to abrogate their Second Amendment Rights while a select few do not? What makes them any better than us? Are the visitors more dangerous than the vendors?

    I can't answer these questions. All I can offer is that I feel confident that I will cause no one present at a gun show harm by and accidental discharge of a weapon I may be carrying. I temporarily concede my "right to carry" for the absolute safety of others every time I go to a gun show. I do this not only because our show promoters and city laws require it, I do so out of concern for others. For my own safety I would appreciate the same consideration by others, be they visitor or vendor. Is there anything wrong with that?

    No one is asking, or even recommending that they leave their weapon in their car, or in their saddlebags. The only situation being put forth is that vendors at gun shows temporarily unload their weapon. They can keep their weapon on their hip, under their shoulder, behind their back, inside their waistband, or stick it in their darn ear!!! Just, for a brief period of time, temporarily give up the masochism and put the clip/bullets in their pocket in the interest of infallible safety. Is that really to hard to do, or too much to ask?

    Personally, I don't think so.

    You and I will probably never see this eye to eye and in the same light to be able to come to an absolute conclusion on the matter; but it is enjoyable to be able to disagree in an intelligent and positive manner without the debate turning into a mudslinging, name calling, flaming tirade.

    Thanks for the respect offered, it is appreciated.

    I am going to exit the debate at the present time to allow others, if they desire, to express their opinion(s).

    Regards





    tuckerd1
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1448
    (1/30/03 3:00:00 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jim, I don't necessarily like having to unload when in a confined, busy place. You are supposed to be carrying "concealed." Why should anyone have to know you had it on you?? Of course some of these macho types in the gunshows "have " to let everyone know.

    Now, if absolutely necessary, I could accept unloading better than not being allowed to carry at all. Having to leave your weapon at home or in the car doesn't set well with me.



    EvilAudio
    Member
    Posts: 23
    (1/30/03 7:15:28 pm)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think someone here doesn't know the difference between LOADED and COCKED AND LOCKED.
    Loaded around lil kids = OK.
    Round in chamber around lil kids = Pure stupidity.

    If you can't carry without a round in the chamber, you need to practice your draw-cycle-aim-fire sequence. With practice, you can do it in one fluid movement and not hamper your draw time.....Assuming you have a holster worth a s%*7.

    And if you are carrying a revolver here in 2003 you are a living in the dark ages. (Ooooh....semiauto polymers. Witchcraft I tell ye .... a black art. Thou art a Devil.) So don't give me that "What if I have a revolver, wiseass?" crap.

    Now, had said dumbass in Atlanta merely had his pistol loaded, without the chamber "hot", that lil kid would still be walking around today. This is purely a common sense issue, AS ARE MOST FIREARMS CONTROVERSIES. No need for drawn out sensless arguements. Leave that to the Gestapo-crats.
    "If a tie is like kissing your sister, losing is like kissing your grandmother with her teeth out." George Brett

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 6070
    (1/30/03 10:22:23 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And if you are carrying a revolver here in 2003 you are a living in the dark ages. (Ooooh....semiauto polymers. Witchcraft I tell ye .... a black art. Thou art a Devil.) So don't give me that "What if I have a revolver, wiseass?" crap.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    Ain't nuthin wrong with a wheel gun




    Ignorance is a crime in 49 states. In the other one it is bliss.




    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1452
    (1/31/03 6:38:50 am)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    O.K., I'm back. But only for a short.

    tuckerd1 -


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't necessarily like having to unload when in a confined, busy place. You are supposed to be carrying "concealed." Why should anyone have to know you had it on you??
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Aren't you people checked to see if you are carrying firearms when you go to gun shows, concealed or otherwise? Here in Michigan EVERY individual entering the building at a gun show is checked, either verbally or mechanically, for a firearm. If carrying, it is inspected to insure it is UNLOADED IN MAGAZINE AND CHAMBER both. I agree that leaving my weapon in the car or at home doesn't sit well with me either, but sometimes ya just gotta do something that goes against your grain for the benefit of a greater cause. The "greater cause" here being flawless safety.



    EvilAudio -

    Loaded, cocked and locked, hot, condition one - they're all descriptive terminology of the "at the present time" characteristics of a firearm; i.e., the ability (of the last three terms)to fire a round without the need to cycle the action in a long gun and/or a pistol or load the chamber of a revolver.

    I'll pass on making a comment on paragraphs two and three off your response as they are not significant to the context of this discussion.


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now, had said dumbass in Atlanta merely had his pistol loaded, without the chamber "hot", that lil kid would still be walking around today. This is purely a common sense issue, AS ARE MOST FIREARMS CONTROVERSIES. No need for drawn out sensless arguements. Leave that to the Gestapo-crats
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A question for you - Can YOU, PERSONALLY, absolutely, positively, unequivocally GUARANTEE that the kid in Atlanta would not have been shot if that weapon had been unloaded in chamber only? This goes directly to the heart and thrust of my contention: If that weapon had been unloaded in both chamber and magazine, their is no way in Heaven or on Earth that he could have been shot.

    Have you ever (or better yet - how many times have you) seen an attendee at a gun show pick up a weapon - hand gun or long gun - cycle the action, then without even looking into the chamber, "drop the hammer"? I know I've seen it happen. Nine out of 10 - or 99 out of 100 times, the person handling the weapon may inspect the chamber of that weapon to insure it is unloaded. BUT ALL IT TAKES IS THAT ONE time for common sense not to be practiced and you have a potential disaster waiting to occur.

    You are 100 percent correct in your assessment that it is purely a common sense issue. The big question is how much do you trust someone else's common sense? Do you trust everyone that carries a weapon with YOUR life? Do you trust everyone that carries a weapon with your life 100 percent of the time?

    No one here is arguing. We are merely engrossed in discussion concerning our individual views on a particular topic we feel is important. Even though the current discussion has evolved from the original post, no one has been obnoxious, demeaning, vulgar, condescending, or hateful during our many exchanges covering both topics.

    So I guess Ill sum it up by saying that I do know the "difference between LOADED and LOCKED AND COCKED", as well as being able to recognize and differentiate between an argument and a discussion. And I feel safe at gun shows when I carry my pistol unloaded in both magazine and chamber. I only wish that others would have as much concern for infallible safety as myself.







    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1000
    (1/31/03 9:10:57 am)
    Reply Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'll have to agree with you, ruffitt, on the stupidity of dry-firing a gun at a gunshow without checking the mag and chamber first. As I understand it, the rule on zip-ties is to prevent the kind of thing you're talking about (an accidental discharge from a weapon you "thought" was unloaded).

    But in my mind, this is a different issue from being allowed to carry a firearm on you, that is your personal defense weapon. Those guns should not be taken out of their holster unless there is a true life & death emergency.

    So the real issue is why we're treating the "guns for sale" differently than the "personal carry" guns.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!

    ruffitt
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1458
    (1/31/03 5:11:00 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Zip ties and the Gun Show
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1952Sniper -

    From Stan741:
    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Looking for my buddy and walk by a holster dealer.The dumb butt is in camo and packing a sidearm.Holster dealer.MMMM.Flashback to the happening in Atlanta. I walked over and asked him if his sidearm was loaded.Yes,it is he replied.Wanna see it?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    And the above would fall into which category of self defense or a life & death emergency?

    I agree
    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So the real issue is why we're treating the "guns for sale" differently than the "personal carry" guns.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Why we are treating "for sale" weapons differently than "carry weapons" I do not know. I know we do, and I feel it is wrong to do so. It is my firm opinion that all weapons should be treated equally at gun shows; and that is unloaded in magazine and chamber.

    Realistically; how many times has there been a true self defense or life & death emergency at a gun show where a firearm has had to be put to use? I do not pretend to infer that it has NEVER happened; however, personally, I am aware of no such instances. On the other hand and just as realistically, how many accidental discharges have there been at gun shows?

    Could accidental discharges have been prevented? You can bet your ever-lovin toot toot that any, and ALL,of them could have been prevented if the weapon was unloaded in both magazine and chamber. Regardless if it was a vendors weapon or a for sale weapon, it would not have happened if it had been completely unloaded.

    As I see sit, there are certain circumstances when safety issues should be paramount for the benefit of all concerned and should over-ride the ego and ideological agenda of a select few.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2003
  2. johnlives4christ

    johnlives4christ Former Guest

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,828
    Location:
    Kentucky
    last gun show i went to any of the guns you took in had to be tied but the guns for sale were not. had to not only unload my carry gun, but couldnt have the ammo. which is bs because i could have bought a box while in the show.

    i understand that unloading the guns is a safety factor when you got people that might ask about the gun your carrying and then you have some idiot that whips out the loaded piece.

    zip ties are a tad much. gun shows are just that GUN shows. were gun people get together to look at their babies. it' be like having a car show but zip tying all the car hoods down
  3. SARG

    SARG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
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    320
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    Northeast
    Another resurrection from 2003.:)
  4. glocknut

    glocknut New Member

    Joined:
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    THE FORUM MASCOTT...
    Indeeeeed..... :rolleyes:

    gn
  5. Crpdeth

    Crpdeth New Member

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    Apr 23, 2002
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    Location: Location
    Lots of fond memories... Thanks John.

    I'm noticing that now a lot of the pawn shops around here are having to zip up their guns.

    Crpdeth
  6. medalguy

    medalguy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    Messages:
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    2003. That explains why I'm curiously looking at a thread with 4 postings but 3,000+ views. :eek: Sorta unusual.
  7. Redhand

    Redhand Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    785
    I've attended Gun Shows all over the Eastern USA for the past 35 yrs. I've carried concealed for years and never had to put up with the BS that goes on now. I've quit Gun Shows for the very reasons mentioned in many of these posts. If the majority of gun enthusiasts can't trust one another then things are going down hill in a finger pointing basket. I've seen the POT-US point his finger real often, Whats the purpose of that? My personal saftey is just that, and if I choose to go somewhere where there is a minimal chance that my personal saftey maybe in jeapardy then that also is my choice and above all " MY FREEDOM". The terrorists, anti-gunners, lawyers, polo=t-cians and the In-sure-ants and other miscreants who don't want us to have PERSONAL FREEDOM have won incremental battles, but keep pushing and pushing until we fall off the cliff or side-step and let their pitiful panty waist hit the bottom button. Pardon my mis-spelling and punctuation but try to read for my salient points rather than try to homeschool me. One more observation, What happened in the last 7 yrs. to change everything we do or say or think ?:confused::eek::confused::rolleyes:
  8. wyoredot

    wyoredot New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
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    Montana
    Libs pushing for po-litical corr-ect-ness.
  9. Dr342

    Dr342 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    60
    I passsed on a WRA Garand at the Glendale CA show this past summer cause the guy wouldnt let me break it down for inspection. He said take my word for it!
  10. johnlives4christ

    johnlives4christ Former Guest

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    yes i noticed it was an ancient post.. but i figured why the heck not.
  11. CCHolderinMaine

    CCHolderinMaine Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,224
    Location:
    Steep Falls, Maine
    This is an ancient post but I've just run into this myself. Feature the silly laws in my state: A rifle is OK, no zip tie, look down the bore, anything. A handgun? Must be zip-tied shut. Clearly everybody knows that a .50 cal rifle couldn't kill you but a .22 Derringer could. So which is it? Are politicians really that stupid, or do they just think we are?
  12. deadin

    deadin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,029
    We used to have a guy at our local show that came to just "field strip" other people's guns. He never bought anything. After he screwed up a gun, the way we finally got rid of him was to require that he first had to lay the selling price on the table in cash to show that he willing and able to buy instead of just playing with the gun.
    I think this might be a good way to screen out the "tire kickers" and other lookie-lou's that seem to abound at shows.
    As for checking the bore, I always carry my own ties to replace the one that I ask the owner to cut. I've yet to be turned down.
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