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Suhl Potsdam musket

4K views 9 replies 6 participants last post by  sck 
#1 ·
I went to my first ever auction this morning. While there, I picked up a Potsdam musket. I believe it is a percussion conversion with a half stock. The barrel says 1813 and the butt plate says 1818. The butt plate also says 2LWR, 2C, and 564. There does not seem to be any rifling in the barrel.

Can anyone shed some more light onto this firearm? Does 2LWR mean "2 Landwehr Regiment"? Is 2C "2 Company"? Is 564 the number in the company?

I don't see any date on the firearm when it was converted.

I've done some research on the general history of the musket, but I'd like to look a little more into this specific one. It seems to be in good condition. It has a few dings, but it looks nice.

@sck, I saw that you have helped people out in the past with these firearms.

Thanks everyone.
 

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#2 · (Edited)
Greetings and welcome to our little corner of the world!
Thank you for mentioning my earlier posts. Based on everything that I know, which is really pretty limited, you have it right. During this early period, LW usually stands for Landwehr, 2C would refer to the 2nd Company, and 564 would be the number of the weapon. With that information, a great deal of persistence and even more luck, you might be able to find some information about Landwehr Regiment 2. However.... you may not. You also might try looking for "Preußisches Infanterieregiment No. 2" or "Altpreußisches Infanterieregiment No. 2" because at the time this weapon would have been in the hands of a Landwehrmann, circa 1813-1860, each regiment usually, often, sometimes, maybe, had a Landwehr unit attached to it that was identified with the same number. Keep in mind that the designation of your weapon is to the same as K.und K. LW 2: that would be Austrian Landwehr Regiment Nr. 2. Yours is also not the same as LIR 2 which wasn't created until 1868. So, unless you're simply real curious, don't get trapped into following those leads during your search. The other marks on your weapon indicate that it was made at the Königliche Preußische Gewehrfabrique -- Suhl. You can find lots of interesting stuff about that too. You might want to start here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Königliche_Preußische_Gewehrfabrique. Then you should also see: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suhl (Suhl which is near Erfurt, is now so ashamed of its history that it declared itself officially a "city of peace) and finally and most importantly, see: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanteriegewehr_M/1809 This article will explain a little more about your weapon. If you find it by using a search engine (goo...) it will show an option for having it translated for you. But then.... the next question you might ask is .... how did it get here?

With a little more searching you'll find that after the outbreak of the Civil War in 1861, many of these obsolete weapons were sold to agents of both the north and the south. Most of them ended up going to the North and there are lots and lots of references to them in that connection. You might be lucky enough to find a state name stamped on the stock somewhere. For example, a lot of them went to Ohio and show a stamped "Ohio" somewhere on the stock. There are lots of other states that stamped theirs as well such as "Conn." and "Mass." If you look in federal records, there are lots of references to the purchase and distribution of them. Unfortunately, there isn't one source that collates them all. In general, most officers rejected them for use, so they were sent to the various states, each of which was clamoring for weapons to supply the regiments they were forming. If your example, has a state stamp, or you purchased yours in a state that received these weapons, you should be able to find accounts in your state's archives detailing the transfer to the state and then out to various units. They wont be so detailed to allow you to follow a given serial number, but you will be able to get an impression of the overall pattern within your state.

The next question you might consider, after all of that is "what do I do with it?" Well, the easiest thing would be to keep it like it is. It is a very nice example of military weapon. Its history and the changes it has endured reflect, in many ways, important events in history of the world. As it is, it can tell a very interesting story. Or, you could restore it. There is at least one source that used to make replacement stocks for Potsdam muskets. Your example was made in Suhl, but that is should not have any signficance when looking for a new stock. Howeve, the fact that yours had been cut down tells a story about firearms in the United States following the Civil War, when many military weapons were converted to civilian use and tastes. Restoring it could be an interesting and educational project. Or, you could have it done professionally. At the end of a professional restoration it would look like it was the day it was born. However, it would be very expensive and many people would argue that any "restoration" of an historic firearme destroys all value. Others point to the practice of restoring classic automobiles and explain that people have been restoring those for years. Whatever path you decide to follow, please let us know.

Finally, if you're very lucky and even more brave (some would use the word foolhardy or stupid), you might have one that is in good enough shape to consider firing it! However, before you take that step, please do a couple of other things. First, make sure it is not loaded. I can't tell you how many times people are shocked to learn that an old muzzleloader they've had around for years is still loaded. Put a rod or measuring tape down the inside of the barrel and see how far you get. You should be able to tell from this if it is loaded or otherwise obstructed. Second, take it to someone who is extremely knowledgable concerning muzzleloaders and ask for an opinion. Ask them if it would be safe to fire. Third, if the "expert" indicates it would be safe, put together some sort of clamping system, often an old tire on a table will work, that will allow you tie it or clamp it down securely so that you can stand a safe distance away and fire it without holding it! If you get that far, please remember a camera: we would like to see the pictures. Until then, thank you again for your question and keep us posted as to what you discover.
 
#3 ·
sck, martial arms generally aren't my field of interest but German firearms are. What a wonderful post, thank you!
 
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#4 ·
What you have is an "Infanteriegewehr 1809 /12" with an conversion from flintlock to percussion lock. The shortening of the stock belongs not to this conversion an will be made private.
Since 1825 the Prussian army makes experiments to refurbish this gun in firing system. Since 1830/31 they were successfull with a percussion system and at first they converted 4000 guns. King Friedrich Wilhelm IV gave at 10.September 1839 the approval for the aptation of all guns and the order for 30.000 new one every year. These guns were not rifled, the rifling started 1855. Kaliber is 18mm, length is 1445mm.
During the civil war the Union purchased 165.000 from this obsolete guns from Prussia, mostly the converted M1809. The vast majority purchased were smoothbore.
The picture shows a complete one.
 
#5 ·
My example is rifled. This was done as part of the conversion process of these muskets from flint to percussion by the Prussians. However, the rifling is rather shallow. The steel or iron barrel is also rather soft. For this reason if one of these muskets was fired alot or if it is a little more rusty the rifling would be gone and the musket would appear to be smooth bored.
 
#7 ·
Thanks for all of the additional comments, corrections and compliments. I wish that someone would write a book on these weapons. I think there are enough of them out there that a book might have at least a few hundred sales. A few years ago, I found a guy who had put together a paper or small pamphlet, mostly about their use during the Civil War, but I can't seem to find it any longer. The numbers and distribution seems to have varied from state to state, but in the state of Ohio, for example, the state's Adjutant General, writing on June 30, 1875, noted that the state had received 194 "Prussian Rifled muskets, cal. 70 and 71" but 5,666 "Prussian Smooth-bore muskets" between January 1, 1861 and April 9, 1865. Shortly thereafter, on July 27, 1875, Ohio's ranking military officer noted that "64 Prussian rifled muskets caliber 70 and 71" had been in the state's arsenal but were subsequently "returned to the United States."

I also wish that I had been better at editing my post. There are more than a few typos that I'd like to correct. Thank you again.
 
#8 ·
Sorry for the delayed reply. I had to travel for work for a few days.

Thank you to everyone for the information. I really appreciate it. The history behind this model of firearm is pretty amazing. I looked on the stock for a stamp or ink, but I couldn't see anything. The stock is really dark though.

Does anybody know if the stock would have been cut down before import to the US or after?

If I find out any additional information about this gun I will relay it here.

I also picked up a J. L. Cazes 16 gauge SxS shotgun at the same auction. Maybe I will start a new thread about that one, but it is in rough shape. Still an interesting piece that was made before 1800.
 
#9 ·
It would have been purchased in military configuration for use by the military.

After the War it was surplused out (or captured by someone from the South) it was 'sporterized' for use as a shotgun.
 
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#10 ·
Greetings again!
As Mr. Grizzley 1 explained, and I tried to explain in my original post, it would have been cut down after its military career was over. While in military service, it would have also had a bayonet. The stamps that I mentioned on the stock were metal stamps that made fairly deep impressions in the stock, similar to the ones on the trigger guard and buttplate. The fact that your stock has been cut down and has seen a great deal of wear and tear over the years suggests they would be very, very difficult to see, but I'm always hopeful. Best of luck and keep us posted.
 
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