Story in my local paper today. Woman here's someone in her apartment, pulls her compact .380, her door is forced open, she shoots thru the door hitting the person in the torso, putting him down and in the hospital in critical condition. When, if he recovers, there will be questions. ( he was one of 3 room mates in the apartment, so its an odd deal. The who, why, hasn't been established, the 3rd party I being questioned, etc, why was the door trying to be forced, etc )
Beyond that.. Sounds like a 380 was plenty enough to put an average adult down into crit condition with a single torso shot.
I know this is a thread about the ..380, but it really turned into a discussion about penetration. I found this video about the .22lr. If you think the .22 is under-powered watch:
Aspeck, I agree. My little pocket .380 is always with me and I don't even notice it. I practice weekly and am very proficient at shooting it.
I would rather have a lousy shooter shooting at me with a 45 ACP than a good shooter with a .380. I don't care how big the bullet is, if you miss, it is worthless.
My experience with the LCP 2 was I kept hitting the Magazine release while fireing. Even with Talon Grips!!!!!! My Glock 42 gives me no problems at all. I would go with a Glock 42. The LCP 2 has been sold.
I will add that I like my .45 because of the knock down power. If you miss the heart they will still be going back and down.
The other thing that bothers me is some bad guys these days are wearing body armor and even if my .45 does not pass thru it the impact will put them down with broken ribs and a second shot can end it quick.
As I said any cal. will kill with a good shot but under high stress hitting the right spot can be harder then practicing at a target the .45 will rip apart any part of the body that it hits.
The larger the cal. the more instant knock down power there is.
But any gun will kill as said even a pellet rifle will kill.
Mike
That's why I go for the eye shot!
If you suspect body armor, you could go for the hips. Two main arteries, two main veins and the "please don't hit me there" items. You will at least cause the axle to break which will take them down.
When I was a cop I saw people killed by .22 LR, 9-mm, 12 gauge, .44 magnum, .44 special and probably a couple more calibers.
One thing they all had in common was that they were dead.
The whole best caliber for self defense debate is a bit moot because shot placement is more important than caliber, and also there is no way to 100% realistically test any bullet and load in a controlled environment that truly replicates an actual use of it against a human being.
If you put a .380 bullet, any .380 bullet, into some turd's cranial vault, he's going down. End of fight.
When I was a cop I saw people killed by .22 LR, 9-mm, 12 gauge, .44 magnum, .44 special and probably a couple more calibers.
One thing they all had in common was that they were dead.
The whole best caliber for self defense debate is a bit moot because shot placement is more important than caliber, and also there is no way to 100% realistically test any bullet and load in a controlled environment that truly replicates an actual use of it against a human being.
If you put a .380 bullet, any .380 bullet, into some turd's cranial vault, he's going down. End of fight.
You saying if I hit you with my CD ammo in the Knee, hip, shoulder and so on you wont be going down?. Do you know what a 2x8 hit at 20 feet looks like?.
I am sorry but I have seen what kind of damage a .45 CD can do to a human. If I hit bone you will go down.
Mike
The Sig P238 is a nice Summer Cary firearm.
Easy to hide, very light to carry. It was mention before, the New generation of Ammo can be fatal if taken Internally.
I am of the opinion all handguns are not greatest stoppers. There is no way to accurately predict how a person shot will react. It depends on the person you shoot unless there is a CNS hit.
The better the hit the less important the caliber. The more stressful the situation the harder it is to maintain the discipline to make good hits. Carry the most powerful caliber you CAN bring AND shoot with confidence. For some it's a 22 others it's a big bore magnum. From the data I've seen a large portion of the successful " one shot stops" are psychological stops. The person simply gives up making the sane decision that they would really rather not get shot again, 22 or 45 making little difference. In other instances rage, drugs or fanatical beliefs override instincts for self preservation and your better off having something that brings as much punch as possible.
380 has some decent loads these days and probably will do in most situations but don't kid yourself into believing that it brings it like a 45 acp hydro shock or a 125 grain 357 when some extra convincing is required.
Eye shots, head shots, heart shots? Really? Do any of you actually believe that in a gun fight you will be able to take the time to aim a hand gun? You just shoot center mass, and hope you get the hit you need! A one shot stop! So yeah, caliber, and power, does matter. Unless you have the nerve to stand, take aim, and make the perfect shot, all while being shot at, and probably hit yourself!
Any caliber is better than no caliber, thats 1st and foremost. More power "COULD" potentially be better incase its not a solid shot. With more power generally comes less control, same as tiny guns even in light rounds like 380. Harder to control and harder to put follow up shots on target. You can say thats why you train but like was said, train all you can but you dont know what you can/will do under fire.
Also, if your gonna go for the more power theory, then go for more power. I dont like the 380 cuz i can carry the same round count of 9mm which is more plentiful and cheaper, not so much the power diff. Whats the avg energy diff between 380-9mm-45acp? Not much, what about that huge 45 bullet vs those tiny 380, i say everyone thinking that way should draw a circle .458 and another .358 on a human sized target and back up 7 yards and see how little diff there really is. 45acp is a good proven round but theres too many people that thinks it blows away the other standard rounds and any real world test shows you cant hardly tell them apart. If your gonna go the power route, use a 357mag or sig, 10mm, 41mag, 44mag etc if you can and will carry them. If you can only carry a 380 then thats fine, train all you can and no matter what you carry i think bullet design is key. Also i know the 45acp guys say you dont need over 7-9 rounds but why do you carry a gun then? You should and will prob never need it but just incase you do you have it. Same token if you ever need more rounds even if you shouldn't its nice to have. As close as all the standard rounds are pick one you can carry and operate under high stress, with the most consistent high trama ammo and as much of it as you can take. Or go the power route and actually carry a caliber that stands well above the standard rounds in energy/velocity.
Take a look at bullet expansion. The 9mm will give you a bullet diameter of .50 -.60", if it expands. The .45 will you a bullet diameter of .70-.75", if it expands. That's a pretty good difference, and we haven't touched on penetration. Here are a couple of good articles that everyone of us should read.
Listen up guys! If you want to carry a .22, a .380, or what ever you are comfortable with, then please do so. Any gun is better than no gun! But there are limitations on your choice of hand gun, and on you! Please be aware of the limitations of your own body, and on your choice of hand gun. I can't run any more, and I like the big calibers, but that won't stop me from coming out on the short end of a gun fight. Therefore, I refuse to get involved in one, unless pushed to my limits!
As Dirty Harry Callahan once said "a man's got to know his limitations." Law enforcement and military are taught to aim center mass. There's a reason. Yes, a .380 or .22 round put through someone's eye kills them dead. A blank round to the temple will probably do the same. Gunfights are not a stationary event. BG's are moving and hyped up. Remember, they are worried about survival too.
IF you choose to carry light, then do so. It's your a$$ on the line. If you are absolutely certain you can make the "kill shot" EVERY time with your weapon, have at it. The caliber question and "how much is enough" has been kicked around since gunpowder was invented. Carrying more rounds does you no good if you fire a head shot and miss. You end up dead with a lot of rounds left in the gun.
Personally, I carry as big a I can and still conceal. In warm weather that's a .40, wearing a jacket or coat allows a .45acp or .44 mag. We all get one life and also get to decide how to defend it. Choose what you feel safe with.
I sure have NOT ever been in a shootout and pray i never will. Anything i write is my opinion and some is based on real events but i wasnt there so still just my opinion. Ive been wrong alot in my life and i prob will be alot more if i live long enough. Lol
This is a conversation that will never have a definitive answer. Just fun to read everybodys opinions. Just chose what fits each person specifically and hopefully itll be one of the rounds thats been proven in shootouts. A gun just gives you a chance to live. No caliber guarantees life. You can die with a full mag or die cuz you have an empty mag.
I have appreciated all the comments and differing points of view in this thread. All have validity. I would just like to remind all that in chosing your self-defense weapon of choice, there is not 1 criteria to consider. Penetration, muzzle velocity, ft/lbs of energy, bullet type, are very important, but also important are your daily surroundings, possibility of collateral damage (I would hate to have the death or serious injury of an innocent on my hands), Training, comfort level, and many more. We are all different and live in different areas and have different surroundings. This is a debate that will NEVER have a simple, singular, solution and 1 right answer. Find your comfort zone, train, and protect yourself and those around you!
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