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Proof mark help

7K views 13 replies 7 participants last post by  sharps4590 
#1 ·
Can someone interpret the markings on the bottom of these side by side combination 16 gauge shotgun/mystery rifled barrels? Thanks in advance!

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#2 · (Edited)
Greetings and thank you for the questions and great pictures. Let me begin by saying that I'm not an "expert," but have gathered a little bit of knowledge and a pretty good library that may offer some help.

In the first picture, the eagle is a German proof mark. As specified by the Proof Act of 1891, this first eagle was stamped as first proof on firearms for which a second proof was expected. The first proof ws about three times the normal charge, but the 1891 Proof Act went into a lot of details, which were later modified about what kind of powder, etc. The second eagle is the second proof. The crown over G, was the proof mark for a rifled barrel. The crown over U was the proof mark for firearms that were proofed yet again in their finished form. The 61/49 is one of three things. First, it amy be a refernece to the caliber and chamber size, in that the caliber is (.61 - which is also the size of a 20 gauge) over the length of the chamber (.49 - which is so short this doesn't make sense). Second, it may also be a reference to the thickness of the barrel at a given distance. Third, it may be a reference to measurements taken with regard to the "stretching" of the barrel, but once again, at this point I am not certain.

In the second picture the same can be said for the eagles and the crown over U. They represent the first, second and final or finished proof. The crown over S indicates that it was a smoothbore barrel. The crown over W indicates that it was a choked barrel. The 16 in the circle indicates the final or finished caliber or gauge. The first 16 was applied before the barrel was choked and finished.

The same explanations hold for the third picture. There is the first proof mark represented by the eagle. The crown over G means it is a rifled barrel. The crown over S indicates it is a smoothbore barrel. The S set inside the polygon probably indicates that it was proofed by the proof house at Suhl but that is not certain because the 1891 Proof Act did not require the location to be indicated. It may indicate proof at Dynamit Ag (formerly A. Nobel & Company).

I hope this helps a little. I also hope that other folks will come along and correct the errors that I've made. In the meantime, please keep us posted on what you learn. Thanks again for sharing.
 
#3 ·
There's really nothing to correct in sck's reply but perhaps an addition or two. The 61/49 I believe is the bore diameter of the rifle barrel. At that time the proof houses used a "spud" to insert in the barrel which basically corresponded to what we in the US consider "gauge". Also at that time the length of the case was not stamped on the barrels and unfortunately I can't remember what the second number, 49, is for. As an example, the 9.3 X 72R on rifle barrels proofed I believe pre 1913 were stamped 118/35. If sck and I are right the rifle barrel is definitely a big bore!!!

The other things to add is that the "S" in the elongated hexagon stands for Schilling Forge, the makers of the barrels, not where it was proofed. It is more than likely the shotgun chamber is for the earlier 2 1/2 in. length case and given the age of the piece I can't recommend firing of modern 2 3/4 cases. As there is no "crown over N" present, the gun is not nitro proofed and unless you are an advanced handloader only black powder loads should be used in the gun, if it is in shape to shoot.

Evidently this is a combination gun? A picture of the piece in its entirety would be a pleasure to see.
 
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#4 ·
Pulled this off a German "proofmarks" site. Notice the last line about a forward slash,

>Rifle Gauge Table

A brief table that is pretty helpful for pre-WWI German rifles shows the use of fractional 'gauge' numbers for barrel diameters. This was largest plug gauge diameter that would fit in the bore. The British proof law of 1868 had set up standard gauge sizes from .300" (172.28 gauge) to .450" (51.05 gauge) in .010" increments in the same sense that a shotgun bore is gauged, by the number of round lead balls of that diameter that make a pound. The Germans adopted this somewhat awkward system as well.

Gauge - inch
51.05 - .450
54.61 - .440
58.50 - .430
62.78 - .420
67.49 - .410
72.68 - .400
78.41 - .390
84.77 - .380
91.83 - .370
99.70 - .360
108.49 - .350 very common on 9,3mms
118.35 - .340 somewhat common on 9,3mms
129.43 - .330
141.95 - .320
156.14 - .310
172.28 - .300 very common on 8mms

These are most frequently seen with a / instead of the decimal point, as in 172/28 or 84/77.<

So if that number is 61.49 gauge, it should be in the .42 - .43 caliber range, so maybe a .45 of some sort?
 
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#5 ·
I can't thank you guys enough! What a great education the internet offers. Here's some so-so pictures of the gun. The 16G side by side barrels that are on the gun are damascus. The 16G/mystery caliber combo barrels are NOT damascus but not nitro proofed. I'll try to get better pics to show the fit and finish of this. The bore and rifling of the rifle barrel look so good it's hard to believe black powder was used.
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#8 · (Edited)
sharps is correct, 61/49 is the bore diameter of this rifle barrel. In this time it was common to use Gauge, Zoll (inch) together with the metric system.
61/49 is .411 = 10,45mm.
This is the old black powder cartridge 10,3 x 60R, the same like .450/400 Black Powder Express
2 3/8'', developed 1880 and changed to Nitro end of 19th century.
Loading: 80gr black powder, 230gr bullet, 1750fps.
In Switzerland, Graubuenden this cartridge in modern form very often used for big game, of course the required minimum of diameter is 10,2mm.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for that Alpo, I don't recall ever seeing that chart. Sure glad you found one!!!

It shouldn't be hard to believe black powder was used, that's all that was available when that combination gun was made. It is on a Lefaucheux action which was developed in France around 1836 for the pin fire cartridge method. It was just a short step to the modern central fire cartridges and the action was easily adapted. The later Henry Jones under lever action from the mid-1860's was an improvement on the Lefaucheux.

With combination guns of that era a Damascus shotgun barrel and steel rifle barrel was not uncommon. The condition of the bore shouldn't really come as a surprise. I have several German/Austrian drillings, combination guns, and stalking rifles of the same or similar age and most of the bores are pristine. If properly cleaned black powder will not degrade a bore nor would the old mercuric priming compounds. Leave it set dirty and yes sir, soon one is looking through a sewer pipe.

If Marble is correct and, I assure you he almost always is, the cartridge isn't a mystery, merely barely known to modern shooters. I would recommend a chamber cast just to be absolutely certain. When making the cast it's easy to extend the cast a couple inches into the bore and have the land/groove dimensions at the same time. It's merely my opinion but your gun appears to be completely un-mucked with but I have worked with enough old Germanic guns to have learned you better check. There's no way to know what might have been done to them and sometimes a fella gets surprised. Whatever the rifle cartridge turns out to be it can be made to shoot and given the apparent condition of your gun were it mine I would be using it, obviously after being thoroughly examined by a 'smith FAMILAIR with the old guns!!!!!! Yours is an exquisite piece, beautiful. I'm glad you came here to ask about it!!!!

I can't help but see the second set of barrels, are they fitted to the action and if so what might they be and what are the proofs on them?
 
#11 ·
I can't help but see the second set of barrels, are they fitted to the action and if so what might they be and what are the proofs on them?[/QUOTE]

The combination barrel is the one not on the gun in the first picture. The barrel set pictured on the gun is 16G damascus both barrels. I'll get a picture of the proofs posted later today.
 
#12 ·
I can't help but see the second set of barrels, are they fitted to the action and if so what might they be and what are the proofs on them?
The combination barrel is the one not on the gun in the first picture. The barrel set pictured on the gun is 16G damascus both barrels. I'll get a picture of the proofs posted later today.

Ok, here's pictures of proofs under the twin 16G barrel set. and thanks again to everyone who commented! I sure came to the right place for info.

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#14 ·
Well I'll be dipped in spit...I've belonged to the German Gun Collectors for about 8 years, visit the site every day and never did see that. Evidently I need to explore it a bit more and see what else I've missed!

I see fish. I have no idea why but I assumed the first set of barrels you showed proofs for were the ones on the gun. Are they fitted to the action? If they do it is entirely possible they were made at a later date as that was not infrequently done.

The second set of proofs are pretty much the same. The lack of a crown over W indicates the right barrel is not choked. Oh, the 16 in a circle I am pretty certain indicates 2 1/2 inch chambers, not finished bore as the non-circled "16" is already present. I couldn't find confirmation for that so it is subject to correction..
 
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