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Decisions, decisions: a fork in the road

8K views 81 replies 33 participants last post by  JoeSalerno117 
#1 ·
I'm in a situation now where I really don't know what to do. As I'll be turning 18 soon, I'm glad I'll have the ability to purchase my first firearm, but there's a few catches. (Warning, this may turn into a stream of consciousness) First off, I live in Commufornia, and don't want a "bastardized" gun for lack of a better term. This, for the most part, leaves me with rimfires, lever, bolt, and pump action guns. I already do most of my shooting at private property, but I don't think any kind of shotgun would really be appropriate there. When it comes to quality lever action or bolt action rifles, they can cost a pretty penny (not to mention the ammo) and I'm only in the market for +-$500. Additionally, looking at rimfires, I'm stuck in that mentality of "just a .22" despite the fact they've proven perfectly functional and economical. Finally, I considered another option, reloading. Seeing as how I do most of my shooting on an AR15, I figured it may not be a bad idea to invest in some reloading equipment, as it would be nice now and help in the long run when I get into some pricier ammo. I'm kind of all over the place, so any opinions, thoughts, advice, or recommendations are welcome. Sorry for the long post, just had to get it off my mind. Thanks in advance
 
#50 ·
Joe,
You sound like you're doing the homework and you've got your eyes open. Damn good for 18 ! Keep it up. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone in their teens start off on the right side of the 2nd Amendment.
You may not realize it, but you're the model other folks are watching.

What do you say about talking ammo? From your comments about airsoft and 22, I think you may have testosteronitis. Most, if not all of us, occasionally love to shoot a cannon. You know, something that has a big blooming flash and a loud BANG. It goes with the territory.
However, I would caution you to take another look. At my time of life, I'm a senior, and shoot larger caliber revolvers for Silhouette (100 yards plus). The damage to your hearing and joints can last a lifetime. I'm always trying to reduce recoil and sound.
I would put a suppressor (there is no such thing as a silencer) on everything I owned if it wasn't such a PITA. I handload to reduce recoil. I'm just suggesting not to give up on 22. low price, low recoil, low sound. Favorite of assassins all over the world.

Now prices are all over the place. It all depends on what you buy, where you buy it, and when. If you walk into some gun shops, you will pay twice the amount of other places for convenience. If you buy online, shipping can eat up savings. Most of us watch our favorite sites for sales and no shipping fees events. Also wikiarms.com will show comparison prices for lots of sites.
You can pay $1.00 for high-end 357 Magnum. You can also get it today at LAXammo.com for $.31 a round. A little planning goes a long way. High-end ammo is for competition, hunting, and self defense. Doesn't sound like those are your interests. Great. Shoot the plinkers instead. How did you arrive at your $1.00 guesstimate?


Prescut
 
#51 · (Edited)
Joe,
You sound like you're doing the homework and you've got your eyes open. Damn good for 18 ! Keep it up. I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone in their teens start off on the right side of the 2nd Amendment.
You may not realize it, but you're the model other folks are watching.

What do you say about talking ammo? From your comments about airsoft and 22, I think you may have testosteronitis. Most, if not all of us, occasionally love to shoot a cannon. You know, something that has a big blooming flash and a loud BANG. It goes with the territory.
However, I would caution you to take another look. At my time of life, I'm a senior, and shoot larger caliber revolvers for Silhouette (100 yards plus). The damage to your hearing and joints can last a lifetime. I'm always trying to reduce recoil and sound.
I would put a suppressor (there is no such thing as a silencer) on everything I owned if it wasn't such a PITA. I handload to reduce recoil. I'm just suggesting not to give up on 22. low price, low recoil, low sound. Favorite of assassins all over the world.

Now prices are all over the place. It all depends on what you buy, where you buy it, and when. If you walk into some gun shops, you will pay twice the amount of other places for convenience. If you buy online, shipping can eat up savings. Most of us watch our favorite sites for sales and no shipping fees events. Also wikiarms.com will show comparison prices for lots of sites.
You can pay $1.00 for high-end 357 Magnum. You can also get it today at LAXammo.com for $.31 a round. A little planning goes a long way. High-end ammo is for competition, hunting, and self defense. Doesn't sound like those are your interests. Great. Shoot the plinkers instead. How did you arrive at your $1.00 guesstimate?

Prescut
Darn right others are watching me, but since it's California it's not in a very positive light. You should've seen the last guy I talked to that I mentioned guns with. As soon as I said the word "firearms" his eyes bulged and it looked like he had the fear of God in him. He then continued to be super awkward for the remainder of our conversation.
Finding the right ammo would likely be a great place to (re)start. My main goal is to spend less than I'm already spending on 5.56/.223. Most of my ammo costs come from averaging whatever I can find on the internet, so like you mentioned, there's high and lower end stuff which ended up averaging around $1. anything under that $0.50 mark is what I'm aiming for. Additionally I've never bought in bulk, so I'm usually getting anywhere from 20-150 rounds at a time.
Generally I get my ammo at brick and mortar retailers, so i don't have experience buying anything gun related on the web. Is it a good idea to buy guns/ammo online? I know you get better prices, but it's nice to support local places.
That Wikiarms sure is a great tool for finding just about everything. My local shop usually sticks to the MSRP (if not a bit more) so it's kind of eye opening seeing prices this low.
 
#55 ·
Well, after going to a few local shops, I've really only gotten more confused and started considering other options. There is a bit of good news though. The private property I go to has a new clearing where it would be safe to shoot shotguns. You think going the shotgun route might be better? After going to the local stores, they informed me that they can barely keep .357 levers in stock, and it kind of hit me spending $1 per shot for plinking isn't what I want to do, so larger caliber rifles are out of the question. The only store that did have a .357 lever had it for $899.99, and that's about $300 over what I found it on wikiarms for. Any new advice?
 
#56 ·
The Henry Big Boy in 38/357 is a great choice because it gives you experience with a lever action and that caliber is superb for choices and options.
The lever action is well known for its ease of use in the backcountry. It's also a big part of our Western heritage. You do need to turn it to the side to eject shooting benchrest.
That 38/357 caliber may be my absolute favorite. Mouse farts at 700fps up to fire breathing dragons at 1500fps in my revolvers. Bump those numbers by 1/3rd for the lever action rifle's long barrel.

The best cheapest revolvers in large numbers are in 38 and 357mag. In three years, you can do what it takes many of us years to do, get a handgun and a rifle in the same caliber. That is kind of a holy grail combo.
I spend $.30 on my 38/357mag ammo, if I buy, so that is another big reason for the caliber choice. It's the first round many of us handload.

I see the .308 as a hunting round.

Prescut
 
#61 ·
Unless the commies get their way :eek:
 
#63 ·
I like to go to the range, sit down and shoot at the 100 yard range. Two bolt guns. A Ruger American Rimfire in 22lr. Couple of hundred rounds then switch to a CZ 527 in 7.62 X 39. Sixty rounds or so. The CZ is designed to shoot steel ammo, runs about $250.00 or less to your door for 1,000 rounds...
 
#66 ·
I read that last sentence, thinking, "Where the HELL does he get a CZ delivered right to his door for $250????"

Then it was, "Dummy, he means the ammo".

Anybody seen my sign?
 
#65 ·
You can buy a 22 conversion kit for your AR. That way you shoot cheap practicing and you have the rifle platform of choice at the high power service rifle competition matches. There is a saying at the range, "beware of the man with only one gun, he knows how to use it". Good shooters are proficient at trigger control, breathing, sight alignment, sight picture, etc., has very little to do with what size bullet leaves the barrel. I have shot competition high power for many years with the AR out to 600 yards. Save your money and get out of commiefornia.
 
#67 ·
Joe, you have made some excellent early steps in your journey. Like the saying goes "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step", consider your first step. There will be others. You will never regret having .22LR...your concern for cost is met there as they are affordable and less costly to shoot. Previous poster's recommendations of Ruger 10-22 and Browning .22Auto can't be beat for accuracy, quality, portability.... While you're having fun with your first step, plan your second step...you would like to reload (maybe) and would like something with more punch, the .357/.38S lever gun is a fabulous choice for mid-range power, low recoil, tons of fun to shoot and it's my favorite cartridge to reload. I like the Marlin, which is very available used, online. Next step to plan for, .22 handgun-you will already have the ammo. Ruger or Browning are great choices. Next step, Larger handgun, like you guessed it .38S/.357 since you already have the reloading capability from a previous step. Next step, shotgun, especially if you have a skeet or sporting clays course near you (think Rem 1100 or 11-87 used).... You get the idea. Think big picture and plan your steps so they will intertwine with previous steps. I still have my first gun from 1967, an old Win 150 .22LR. It's not a great gun, but it still gets gopher duty and gets the job done from my pole barn shop. Have fun and have a great life!
 
#68 ·
For one thing, it sounds like your local shop is over charging for about everything. Go somewhere else. Check out pawn shops. Buying used is generally the best way to go about saving a ton of money. You might have to look around at a lot of places or be a bit patient if you're looking for something specific. Also online places like Bud's Gun Shop, GrabAGun, Sportsman's Guide are good places to find good deals. Also you can find both individuals and dealers listing thing on Armslist. If you absolutely must have something new then the above online places offer much better deals than you'll likely find locally. Just find a local shop that will do a transfer and not charge an exorbitant fee. Sadly being in your state there can be additional fees and you'll find that some online sources will refuse to ship there due to the hassle of all the red tape garbage. Gundeals, (formally called SlickGuns), is a resource that will compare several online resources on not just guns but ammo, scopes, etc.
You mentioned milsurps. A Mosin Nagant 91/30 or M44 can still be found for a couple hundred or so. Cheap Russian made steel cased ammo is also readily available. Just don't expect a smooth feeling bolt gun with a crisp trigger. They're still lots of fun and the 7.62X54R round make s a hell of a bang which is what it sounds like you're looking for. There are lots of other milsurps such as Mauser's around that are much better made and precise. Problem is that 7mm or 8mm is more costly and harder to come by. For something more modern then current offerings from Ruger, Savage, Mossberg, Remington or CZ would work out fine for you. Keep a look out for used Rossi and Marlin lever actions in 38/357 which can be fairly affordable to shoot. Henry makes nice ones too if you don't mind the lack of a loading gate and having to load them at the from of the magazine.
 
#69 ·
You know, the one gun not mentioned that I think is a viable option (if it's still legal for you) is the SKS. It's semi-auto, and the ammo is still pretty cheap. It's not a tack driver but it is reasonably accurate (some models more than others) and I just bought a brand new, never fired Yugo a few months ago for $450, including 100 rounds of ammo. Probably not top on your list, but as you progress, get another gun or two, or five, it makes a good truck gun or brush gun. It would be something you probably wouldn't mind beating up. As long as you keep the bolt clean, they are pretty good guns. I love mine.
 
#70 ·
Keep in mind if you buy a lever gun in a pistol caliber then you'll need someone that is 21 to buy all of your ammo for you for the next 3 years. Sometimes even buying 22LR can be a hassle for people under 21. Hard to beat their ammo prices though.

My top suggestions would be a 30-30 lever gun or a bolt action in something pretty common like 243 Win or 308 Win to keep the ammo more available and affordable. You won't burn through it nearly as fast as in the AR.

I just purchased a new Savage 10 FCP-SR with accutrigger and accustock from grabagun for a total of $583 when you account for shipping, FFL fees, and $100 MFR rebate (no sales tax). That doesn't leave your budget with any room for scope mounts and scope, but there are more affordable options such as the Savage Axis and Ruger American which are about $350. You might look at the Ruger American Predator which has a pretty good reputation and a heavier barrel.

Don't be afraid to buy used either. I've purchased about half new and half used and never had a bad experience with either yet. The most recent was a Savage 111 in 30-06 with cheap 3x9 scope on it from a pawn shop for $200 cash.
 
#76 ·
You opened your post with, "I'm in a situation where I don't know what to do."

The majority of us here are many years older than 18 and, we've been at that point, more or less, for a month or so before we made another gun purchase in a long string of purchases (what to buy and what capabilities should it have).

If you're shooting for fun right now, its hard to beat a .22 for fun. Ammo is cheaper than any other caliber too. If you're going to stay serious about shooting, you'll eventually buy a .22. Why not now. I've been hunting for 60 years in all kinds of places and I've never just walked up on a coyote. If you're going to hunt them seriously, you'll need to still hunt and a center fire caliber would be in order, .223 would be good. As to lions.....there are rumors of Bigfoot prowling around my place but, I wouldn't buy a gun for that specific creature.

I could go on but won't. In your shoes, I would look at 2-3 guns, don't over analyze how it would be used, and buy one based strictly my gut feel.
 
#77 ·
>Keep in mind if you buy a lever gun in a pistol caliber then you'll need someone that is 21 to buy all of your ammo for you for the next 3 years. Sometimes even buying 22LR can be a hassle for people under 21. Hard to beat their ammo prices though<

Not unless it is some stupid California law (which IS possible, since they have some really stupid ones that no ither state has).

The Gun Control Act of 1968 came up with the "must be 21 to buy pistol ammo" thing.

The Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 states that if the "pistol ammo" is for use in as rifle, you only have to be 18.

That's why, when you go buy 22s, and the cashier asks, "Is this for a rifle or a pistol?" (which really REALLY pisses some of you off) they are asking so they know whether you need to be 18 or 21 to buy it.

They do the same thing with 38, 357, 9mm, 41magnum, 45 Colt, 45 ACP and 44 magnum. There are rifles chambered in all of these, so the computerized cash register prompts the clerk to ask.
 
#80 ·
If shooting for fun and doing so in an inexpensive way is what your looking for then options include but not limited too:
.22lr
.22wmr
.17hmr
.223/5.56
7.62x39mm
7.62x51/.308win
7.62x54r

Several guns made in each of these cartridges that are affordable. Its nice to see you research but dont over think this. Your not buying your only gun ever, just your 1st purchase more than likely.

Eventually you should get a 22lr because as many have said, they are fun! From your info, you need a cartridge powerful enough for medium size predators just incase so id hold up on the rimfires just for that reason.

Any of the bottom 4 cartridges would serve you well for your needs. Powerful enough to dispatch any would be assassin big cat, inexpensive enough to shoot on the regular, and plentiful ammo selection from my experience.

The 7.62x54r can be had in a Mosin and for CHEAP. The 7.62x39mm can be had in a couple diff bolt actions but their kinda on the expensive side, but an sks would be in your budget and fun.

The .223rem/5.56 and the 7.62x51/.308win have the same type ammo selection as the other 2 plus alot more match style and hunting style rounds and are both still favorites of our blessed Military. You already have an AR in 5.56 so that's why i thought .308win, not that you cant also have a bolt gun in the same caliber as your AR. That gives you only 1 caliber to buy for. If you did want something different than you already have, the .308win is a fine cartridge. I think you mentioned price you seen for rifle ammo, you can buy premium expensive ammo but if you search online and price some surplus or bulk ammo you will see it can be had for very reasonable.

I still say the Ruger American is a rifle you cant go wrong with and one of those calibers listed will be a good choice. I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39mm that would be an awesome choice for you too but the gun is a little more than what you said you wanted to spend. With the Ruger you can buy optics and ammo and stay within your price range.
 
#81 ·
I live in FL so I don't know much about CA rules. But I recently saw a new Rossi lever action in .44 mag for $400 here. 10 shot as i recall. I think they make a .357 also. Good alternative to a more expensive Marlin. And down the road you might get a handgun of same caliber.
Casy
 
#82 · (Edited by Moderator)
Joe, you have made some excellent early steps in your journey. Like the saying goes "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step", consider your first step. There will be others. You will never regret having .22LR...your concern for cost is met there as they are affordable and less costly to shoot. Previous poster's recommendations of Ruger 10-22 and Browning .22Auto can't be beat for accuracy, quality, portability.... While you're having fun with your first step, plan your second step...you would like to reload (maybe) and would like something with more punch, the .357/.38S lever gun is a fabulous choice for mid-range power, low recoil, tons of fun to shoot and it's my favorite cartridge to reload. I like the Marlin, which is very available used, online. Next step to plan for, .22 handgun-you will already have the ammo. Ruger or Browning are great choices. Next step, Larger handgun, like you guessed it .38S/.357 since you already have the reloading capability from a previous step. Next step, shotgun, especially if you have a skeet or sporting clays course near you (think Rem 1100 or 11-87 used).... You get the idea. Think big picture and plan your steps so they will intertwine with previous steps. I still have my first gun from 1967, an old Win 150 .22LR. It's not a great gun, but it still gets gopher duty and gets the job done from my pole barn shop. Have fun and have a great life!
That sounds like a pretty well thought out plan, and the more I look at what I can do realistically now vs what I'm imagining, what you're saying sounds like the most realistic plan of action. Looking into the 10/22s, there seems to be an infinite amount of upgrades and customizable parts, so it may be a fun area to play with.

For one thing, it sounds like your local shop is over charging for about everything. Go somewhere else. Check out pawn shops. Buying used is generally the best way to go about saving a ton of money. You might have to look around at a lot of places or be a bit patient if you're looking for something specific. Also online places like Bud's Gun Shop, GrabAGun, Sportsman's Guide are good places to find good deals. Also you can find both individuals and dealers listing thing on Armslist. If you absolutely must have something new then the above online places offer much better deals than you'll likely find locally. Just find a local shop that will do a transfer and not charge an exorbitant fee. Sadly being in your state there can be additional fees and you'll find that some online sources will refuse to ship there due to the hassle of all the red tape garbage. Gundeals, (formally called SlickGuns), is a resource that will compare several online resources on not just guns but ammo, scopes, etc.
You mentioned milsurps. A Mosin Nagant 91/30 or M44 can still be found for a couple hundred or so. Cheap Russian made steel cased ammo is also readily available. Just don't expect a smooth feeling bolt gun with a crisp trigger. They're still lots of fun and the 7.62X54R round make s a hell of a bang which is what it sounds like you're looking for. There are lots of other milsurps such as Mauser's around that are much better made and precise. Problem is that 7mm or 8mm is more costly and harder to come by. For something more modern then current offerings from Ruger, Savage, Mossberg, Remington or CZ would work out fine for you. Keep a look out for used Rossi and Marlin lever actions in 38/357 which can be fairly affordable to shoot. Henry makes nice ones too if you don't mind the lack of a loading gate and having to load them at the from of the magazine.
I've heard about the notorious mosin, but they seem to be rare (around my area) and I don't feel to confident in buying online as I can't check for corrosion or a cracked stock. Although I have no trouble buying milsurp, I'd like to be able to look it over. What kind of QA is there for buying over the internet? or is it just a crapshoot hoping you're buying from an ethical person?

You know, the one gun not mentioned that I think is a viable option (if it's still legal for you) is the SKS. It's semi-auto, and the ammo is still pretty cheap. It's not a tack driver but it is reasonably accurate (some models more than others) and I just bought a brand new, never fired Yugo a few months ago for $450, including 100 rounds of ammo. Probably not top on your list, but as you progress, get another gun or two, or five, it makes a good truck gun or brush gun. It would be something you probably wouldn't mind beating up. As long as you keep the bolt clean, they are pretty good guns. I love mine.
I don't know how that got past me! It sounds perfect, since it has a non-detachible magazine it voids the concern of most of the idiotic CA "evil features", not to mention it's cheap with cheap ammo, and semi auto. I'll have to keep my eyes open for one around here. In fact when I went looking around monday I (unknowingly until now) saw an SKS which I believe was Yugoslavian because it had the grenade launcher attachment and the blade bayonet. I wish I remembered the price because that sounds perfect. Doing some reading on the SKS, it seems like some have been soaked with preservatives that take a lot of work to get out, and some models are built better than others. It looks like it'd be between the Yugo and Chinese versions, albeit I'm pretty biased because of the rifle grenade and bayonet.

>Keep in mind if you buy a lever gun in a pistol caliber then you'll need someone that is 21 to buy all of your ammo for you for the next 3 years. Sometimes even buying 22LR can be a hassle for people under 21. Hard to beat their ammo prices though<

Not unless it is some stupid California law (which IS possible, since they have some really stupid ones that no ither state has).

The Gun Control Act of 1968 came up with the "must be 21 to buy pistol ammo" thing.

The Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 states that if the "pistol ammo" is for use in as rifle, you only have to be 18.

That's why, when you go buy 22s, and the cashier asks, "Is this for a rifle or a pistol?" (which really REALLY pisses some of you off) they are asking so they know whether you need to be 18 or 21 to buy it.

They do the same thing with 38, 357, 9mm, 41magnum, 45 Colt, 45 ACP and 44 magnum. There are rifles chambered in all of these, so the computerized cash register prompts the clerk to ask.
I knew you had to be 21 to own a handgun, but I had no idea about that restriction on buying ammo. That'll likely be too much of an inconvenience to buy any center fire pistol ammo.

Prescut makes a valid point. If your goal is fun, and you have an AR and don't plan to hunt, a good pistol is a worthy consideration and that opens a whole range of posibilities. I would strongly recommend a Buckmark or Challenger (Browning Buckmark predecessor). I snagged a beautiful Challenger right before Christmas for $200 and if I run acros another in same condition and cost I'll own 2.

No discussion of easy to operate, first handgun should end without a look at the CZ and it's progeny such as the Jericho in 9mm.

But to your original questions - a lever gun in any pistol caliber so you can later add the pistol - or a Mini-14/Rancher because it is a familiar caliber that is fun and versatile would be my recommendations for rifles UNLESS you have a particular mission such as the desire to shoot sub-MOA 300 meters, or take any Class 3 game. If fun and cost and versatility are priorities, than I stand on these suggestions.

Reloading is a topic to itself - but my advise is get the gun first. Feed it and become friends with it. If you realize it is THE right one, be patient and shop Craigslist and forums for used reloading equipment while you collect all your spent brass (maybe scrounge some extra). Reloading is a hobby and for some a lifestyle but it is seldom a means to save money. But I think (as I duck the flaming arrows about to unleash) it is at least cheaper than golf.

It is EXTREMELY satisfying to go to the range and shoot ammo you made and if your caliber of choice happens to be an expensive one, well that is even more satisfying. For context - equipment (press, shell holder, dies, powder funnel, scales, and calipers are the absolute bare bones) will run you $200 on the low end and upwards of $700 for new top of the line and that is one caliber. Each additional caliber cost will be dies $45-125 and a shell holder or plate (or Caliber conversion if you go Dillon) appx $5, $35, or $125 respectively. Figure if you pick up range brass you can reload 9mm at .10-.12 per round but you can buy it on sale for .20. At only 8 cents per round you can see how long it takes to get your investment in equipment back. Now if you shoot 357 mag, store cost of .50 vs .30 to reload, or if you shoot .41 or .44 you can reload for .40 vs buying at .85 at the store.

As a side note, I was recently in line behind a guy buying 50AE ammo - and I can only assume there is no range brass available based on what he paid and careful gathering of spent brass may make that one round the sole exception to my final statement on the matter. The decision to reload should be based on hobby value first, personal satisfaction second, and the cost of ammo should be a distant third consideration.
If I was 21, you bet I'd be buying a handgun, but sadly I can't as of now. You make a good point of reloading. Although it would likely be mainly a hobby and pride thing, to convince my parents to keep powder and primers around and dedicate a space to reloading would take incentive in the monetary savings form.
 
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