The Firearms Forum banner

Mannlicher Schoenauer, which model to choose ??? :?

44K views 209 replies 9 participants last post by  Rothhammer1 
#1 ·
Hello ladies and gentlemen, i am a new rifle hunter, and i am looking to pick up my first rifle in the very near future.

I have thrown my love on the Mannlicher Schoenauer carbines, and have been reading up about them recently. Yet i still find myself with some important questions, questions that i hope this great forum, can help me answer. Here comes one:

A. I have been offered two MS rifles, one is a 1950 carbine in 6.x54, with a swing mount and a 2,5-6x36 nickel scope.
The second is a 7x57 MCA carbine from the late 60ies, with a 2,5-?x20 weaver scope.
The latter rifle is seemingly in slightly better condition, but both are in over all good shape.

So which one should i choose, and for what reasons?

I look forward to reading your answers, and hopefully become a bit wiser on this most fascinating rifle. :)

Best regards,

Hugin
 
See less See more
#4 ·
Get the M/S if you like it. I would recommend one in a heartbeat. I can't believe you will ever regret it. The older ones had the reputation of being the smoothest bolt rifle ever made...and as far as I'm concerned they still are. My 1903 is from 1929 and it's as slick as wet glass.

Which cartridge? If it were me I'd take the 6.5 X 54...which is precisely what I did in buying my 1903 M/S....but I like the older stuff better. In all honesty the 7 X 57 is probably the better, wiser choice unless you handload. 'Course I think the 7 X 57 Mauser is actually older than the 6.5 X 54 M/S. For medium game neither is wrong.
 
#5 ·
Hello Sharps, and thank you for your input! :)

Yeah, i am definitely going to let my input after handling both play into it, and like you, i do think i'd be happy with either. But i was just wondering if there was any particular deficit, or valor, to any of these two models that i should keep in mind ?

As far as i can tell, the MCA 7x57 should have a higher comb, which is better suited for scope hunting. And besides this, it is almost 20 years the younger gun. Then again i do like hunting without a scope at times, getting close to the animals before taking a shot, and if the 1950 model is in good condition who really cares about age?

Arghh, this choice isnt an easy one, but as you say, i will likely be happy with either, which i guess is in the end the best situation i could be in.
Once again thank you for your post, and if you should think of something more for this thread, please do post again! :)

Best regards!

Claus
 
#6 ·
One is as good as the other. I prefer the older actions but that's a matter of taste and, there is no accounting for taste.

If you can be fortunate enough to find a 1903 with claw mounts AND the rings and scope you'll have it both ways, easily and quickly. However, as you observed, the older rifles are not cut in the stock for convenient scope use. Your head position will be higher and you won't have as good a stock weld as with a more modern stock. Also keep in mind that if you find one with the scope and rings you might not be able to just swap out the scope depending on how it's mounted and its diameter(s). Another side of that is that the older, fixed power, German scopes are much more amenable to repair than new stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to own an old Zeiss, Schmitt & Bender or.....son-of-a-gun...can't think of any others, but they're out there.

As you're already enamored of the M/S I expect you will completely enjoy the one you choose. It took me years to get the one I wanted and only a fool would be willing to pay what I would ask for it.
 
#7 ·
Hello again Sharps, Yeah, i am sure i will. :)

The 1950 one i believe is with its original german claw mounts and scope (a Nickel, which i believe was a shot off from Zeiss, by an ex zeis employee).

I will come back to this thread and let you know which one i chose! :)

C
 
#10 · (Edited)
Hugin;

Welcome to the forum.

I completely agree and concur with Sharps4590's advice to you regarding Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and carbines. I, too, prefer the pre WW2 examples and own my Grandfather's MS1910 (9.5x57) 'British take down' model.

The 'prewar' stocks were well noted and admired by 'snap shooters' of the day as they were light, handy, and the iron sights line up perfectly when brought to the shoulder.

Look up accounts of Selous, Hemingway, T.Roosevelt and other notables who sang the praises of the little 6.5x54 brush gun. Selous and W.D.M. 'Killimanjaro' Bell were very fond of the MS Model 1903 (6.5x54) for elephant! The sectional density of that long projectile made a well placed shot devastating.

There is a gentleman who posts on firearm sites as Kuduae who is a forester in Bavaria. With all of the modern alternatives available, one of his favorite 'go to' firearms for culling game is a Model 1910 MS. A Google Image search of Kuduae will lead to some of his posts.

On mine the claw mounted quick release scope is mounted high so one can readily use the bead sight even with scope attatched.

One disadvantage (for many) of the prewar MS, however, is the unavailability of factory loaded ammunition for what are now obsolete metric calibers.

When I acquired my M1910, I took up handloading. A 'win - win' in the long run if you ask me. With today's internet the necessary information is easy to find, as are dies and suitable brass.

I have never fired a 'postwar' Mannlicher, but can tell you that the smoothness of the 'prewar' MS rifles and carbines is astounding.

Here are two suggestions:

1). For love of history and firearms lore, a Model 1903 (6.5x54). A classic Mannlicher round that is still commercially produced, but pricey.

2). For the 'best of both worlds,' find a good Model 1924, the Sequoia. These were ordered by Stoeger for the U.S. market and were chambered in 30.06 caliber. Pre war Austrian craftsmanship, readily available ammunition for U.S. market.

The photo used for my 'avatar' is of my grand dad (at center) holding the MS 1910 with a leopard taken with it in Burma.

A good source of information is the Mannlicher Collectors Association

Enjoy!

BR.

*Edit... Mr. Eichendorff (Kuduae) is not Bavarian (ooops) as some of my ancestors were, he is from Lower Saxony. My apologies.
Illustration Symbol
 
#11 ·
Kudae is Axel Eichendorff, the "Answer Man" for the German Gun Collectors Assn. and a knowledgeable man he is!!! There isn't a lot Axel doesn't know about German & Austrian firearms and what I have learned of him through correspondence and reading his articles and answers is that if he doesn't know he will find out. You can find his posts on several different forums. Fine man.

I received the latest "Waidmannsheil" publication just yesterday. There was a blurb in the magazine that indicated the German Gun Collectors Assn. and the Mannlicher Collectors Assn. were going to start working sort of together. I belong to both and can't recommend them enough.
 
#13 ·
Hello guys, I just stumbled across this phrase from www.mannlicher.org 's own newsletter, (#99, page 2, bottom left column)

A comment should be made about the early
European scope mountings that required large dove tail cuts
made into the receiver . These mounting cuts are considered
to make the rifle unsafe for firing. In Austria, such rifles are
not to be fired at all. In the United States, after WWII, P.O.
Ackley tested many bolt action rifles where he discovered
Mannlichers so cut were the first actions to explode,
probably due to the severity of these scope mounting cuts
I this something I should be worried about, and how do I recognise if the mentioned unsafe modification has been made?
 
#14 ·
The dove tail cut they're talking about is in the receiver ring and does, as far as I know, always expose the threads on the barrel. It is directly on top and just in front of the action opening, where the front claw mounts would slide in. It really is unmistakable. One has to assume that the cut does indeed weaken the action. My 1903 is so cut. Mild handloads have caused me no difficulties at all. That is in my rifle with my loads. Anyone else and their rifle is on their own. Whether or not you should be worried is up to you. If you're an advanced handloader you've probably been making your own decisions for a while and this one is no different.

I did not readily find any pressure data for the Mannlicher cartridges though I am certain it is out there. This operator is not very good. I am not an advocate of loading the hottest ammo a rifle will take and especially for fine, old rifles. If a hot load is accurate it is a given that there is equally a lighter load that is just as accurate. For game and even long distance shooting hot loading is it not necessary if you learn your rifle and load. It doesn't take 3000 fps and a three dollar bullet to kill any animal.
 
#15 ·
Thank you Sharps (again!).

Hm, some food for thought, especially as I am not a handloader.

The two MS carbines I have been offered are both post ww2 though, so they should be alright I assume. But now i at least know what to look out for in any case, which is positive.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Thank you Sharps (again!).

Hm, some food for thought, especially as I am not a handloader.

The two MS carbines I have been offered are both post ww2 though, so they should be alright I assume. But now i at least know what to look out for in any case, which is positive.
Many Mannlicher Schoenauer and Steyr rifles can be found with scope mounts affixed to the side of the receiver by means of screws.

My 1910 (9.5x57) has dovetailed claw mounts, not cut very deep.
Haven't heard of any 'exploding' through normal use. That really could ruin one's day.

Another suggestion would be to forsake a scope altogether and find an uncut, original M1903 through M1910.

If you can find any 1903 through 1910 model MS that you can literally get your hands on, take off the scope and eyeball a 'target.' Then wrap your right hand around the pistol grip, swing it up to a snug shoulder fit while bringing left hand into position, snug that cheekpiece up, et voila! You should have a perfect 'sight picture.'

Then open the bolt, squeeze the trigger (with rifle unloaded) and lower the rifle. When it gets to an angle of about 40 degrees, the bolt will slide home and close completely as if on ice skates.

For added precision, some were factory equipped with a wonderful little wrist mounted 'flip up tang sight.' Mine has one and it's a nice bit of kit.

However you go, if it's a Mannlicher Schoenauer you'll be in the first class section.

BR.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Hello Rothhammer1, and thank you for your post! I appreciate the help and info! :)

I do intend to eventually hunt with open sights, so your suggested solution would actually suit me quite well, and might well happen in time. It will most likely happen with a post ww2 model however, (a model 1950), as the pre ww2 ones seems very hard to get. In fact i've looked around for one in Denmark and Italy, and could not even find one for sale, nevermind one for sale at a reasonable price.

However as i understand it, the main differences between pre and post war MS carbines are in the cut and weight of the stock, as well as in length and weight of the barrel, not in the type of action or magazine system used. So the famed MS glass like ease of operation of the bolt should be constant throughout the models i assume.
Hmm, Maybe someone more rifle construction savy than myself can chip in here, but as an outset this is what i think.

The more i read up about these fine rifles, i must admit that my ideal choice would likely be a pre ww2 6.5 model. Ideally a non dove tail cut one. However we live in a non perfect world, one can not always get exactly what one wants, and the 1950 6.5 model is supposedly only slightly heavier and less sleak in its build than the 1903s one, while it retains a very short barrel length. So it might represent a very good secondary solution to a 1903 model, and be a fine rifle in its own right, that still suits my needs well. And that is of course the alfa omega here. :)

If i am wrong in some of the above, i hope some of our more MS knowledgeable posters will feel more than free to correct me. The more correct and useful info we can get into the light, regarding these great rifles and their history, the better!

Have a great day everyone!

Claus
 
#18 ·
Never buy a Mannlicher with this incorrect "Wiener Schnaeppermontage" (Vienna snapper mounting), the system is destroyed by gunsmith, no proof house don't agree it now. A lot of guns exploded when firing.
On the correct mounting the front part is soldered on top of receiver ring and not mounted by a dove tail part (in German "Schwalbenschwanz" swallow tail, in Austrian "eingeschwalbt").
Gun Firearm Rifle Trigger Air gun

incorrect mounting

Gun Firearm Rifle Trigger Air gun

correct mounting
 

Attachments

#19 · (Edited)
Thank you, Marblekonus, i'll look out for this now!

PS. with the correct mounting often having a part that is soldered to the reciever, can one still use the open sights fully, should one chose to remove the scope at some point, or will the soldered part interween with the correct line of sight to the iron sights?
 
#31 ·
PS. with the correct mounting often having a part that is soldered to the reciever, can one still use the open sights fully, should one chose to remove the scope at some point, or will the soldered part interween with the correct line of sight to the iron sights?
Some scope mountings are installed with a tunnel to the iron sight, than you must not remove the scope when aiming with iron sight but the mounting of the scope is higher and you need a longer neck. Only by combined hunting rifles pre WWII like a Drilling it's obligatory when you have cocked the rifle barrel, the iron sight goes in vertical and you can use the iron sight for short distances or the scope due in this time variable scopes not available. A longer neck is not neccessary, very elegant mounting "Suhler Einhakmontage"

It doesnt look like a dovetail on the 1950 model, does it? QUOTE]
This mounting is correct, the dove tale is in the soldered ring over the receiver.

The dealer of the 7mm says the mount are soldered on, so not a dovetail design, i would assume.
Here it's another system, the dove tail is manufactured by the gunfactory and it's in line with the barrel, nothing is soldered, only claws take the mounting on the linear dove tail.

Mine is cut into the barrel area ahead of the receiver. Have you heard of problems with that sort of modification?
That's the worst case and I've seen a lot of pictures with destroyed barrels, may be I can show you if I can find it.

Hello again Rothhammer1, - well if it was in good condition and of the right calibre, then sure, why not consider a take down :)

So far i have yet to find a single pre ww2 MS in 6.5x54 for sale in Italy or Denmark however, be that in a take down version or regular model. :-/
I think this will be not a problem in Europe, Dorotheum, Vienna, Austria is the best auction for this.
 
#20 ·
Marblekonus, here are two rifles i am looking at.

These are photos of 1950 6.5 MS, incl. of the scope mount:

Gun Firearm Rifle Trigger Air gun

Gun Rifle Firearm Trigger Air gun

It doesnt look like a dovetail on the 1950 model, does it?

Below are photos of the late 60ies produktion 7x57:

The dealer of the 7mm says the mount are soldered on, so not a dovetail design, i would assume.
Firearm Gun Rifle Trigger Air gun


Firearm Gun Rifle Trigger Air gun


Shotgun Gun barrel


I have to say that i have yet to hold them in my hands, but from the photos, the 7x57 does look in almost perfect condition. If only it was the shorter and more compact 6.5, and it would be close to perfect.
 
#21 · (Edited)
That 1950 is purrrrty. The other one's quite nice looking as well, but the figured wood on the '50 really shines.

I notice in your photo that the 1950 seems to be designed with metal added to the receiver ring, presumably to give a bit of 'meat' to mount a scope to.

Have you considered a take down?
 

Attachments

#23 ·
"However as i understand it, the main differences between pre and post war MS carbines are in the cut and weight of the stock, as well as in length and weight of the barrel, not in the type of action or magazine system used. So the famed MS glass like ease of operation of the bolt should be constant throughout the models i assume.
Hmm, Maybe someone more rifle construction savy than myself can chip in here, but as an outset this is what i think."

Two cents worth:

Seems to me that Sharps4590 has pre and post WW2 MS rifles.

How 'bout it, sharps... how do the M1903 and M1950 stack up 'side by side'?
 
#25 ·
Roth I can't answer that, from experience anyway. The only one I have is the 1903 from 1929, (probably soon to be rectified but still with a pre-war rifle). I believe the early post war models were the same actions as the pre-war rifles so one would think they should be just as smooth. When they changed the action where the rear receiver ring was fully enclosed and changed the magazine I wouldn't think them as smooth as the original actions. Seems to me the friction alone from the enclosed rear receiver ring would negate them being as smooth. To call the pre-war rifles delightful is gross understatement.
 
#26 ·
Roth I can't answer that, from experience anyway. The only one I have is the 1903 from 1929, (probably soon to be rectified but still with a pre-war rifle). I believe the early post war models were the same actions as the pre-war rifles so one would think they should be just as smooth. When they changed the action where the rear receiver ring was fully enclosed and changed the magazine I wouldn't think them as smooth as the original actions. Seems to me the friction alone from the enclosed rear receiver ring would negate them being as smooth. To call the pre-war rifles delightful is gross understatement.
Hello again Sharps, - do you have an idea of when they started to do this?
 
#29 · (Edited)
Sorry to disappoint, but I don't know that offhand. I'll have to do some reading.

I think it was the M1950 or M1952, though, that did away with the option of loading from a stripper. I'm not sure which, as I own only the M1910 and have mostly been interested in researching the 'prewar' actions (and would like very much to own a full stocked Sequoia).

Loading the magazine from the top with a 5 round 'stripper' is, to me, part of the beauty of operating the MS;

Set the rifle in your left hand, with floor plate at your palm. Open the bolt, take a loaded clip into your right hand and fit into the precisely machined groove at the upper rear of the open action.
Give a push of the left thumb straight down and the five rounds smoothly slide into the belly of Schoenauer's magazine. Catch the clip with right hand, stuff it in your pocket.

To empty the spool, curl your left middle finger up around the stock to press that release button and they'll roll right back out. With practice you can get them to fall into your awaiting right hand. All the while the left hand is cradling the rifle just at her center of balance.

Gotta like 'old world' Austrian craftsmanship.

BR.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Hm, Rothhammer1, how do I recognise a "sequoia" and where in the world are you based?

Because the arms dealer, who is selling the 1950 MS 6.5x54, also has 3006 for sale, and he bought all of them of the (death) estate of an ms collector.

Now i dont know if that 3006 is a sequoia, but If you'd like me to , I can ask to see the 3006 as well when i am at the shop, and upload some pics for you.

Ps . what does BR stand for? :)
 
#33 · (Edited)
The M1924 'Sequoia' was a 'classic' pre- WW2 Mannlicher, available in the same configurations (rifle, carbine...) as its predecessors but with a longer action. They were originally ordered and imported by Stoeger in .30-'06 for the U.S. market.

The MS was a European arm, was expensive, and the American buyers were unfamiliar with it. Most went unsold and were returned to Steyr who reconfigured them to other calibers for European markets and continued production of the 'M1924/25' in various calibers.

Because of this, M1924 Mannlichers can be 'original,' yet be of various caliber unlike the preceeding models which were, if unaltered originals;

M1903 - 6.5x54mm.
M1905 - 9x56mm.
M1908 - 8x56mm.
M1910 - 9.5x57mm.*

*The 9.5x57 (DWM 531) is also referred to as 9.5x56 and .375 Nitro Express Rimless 2 1/4".

Original Sequoias have 'Sequoia' stamped on the barrel, just forward of the action.
The receiver ring is stamped 'Made in Austria, Patent, Mannlicher, Schoenauer, M1924'.

I live in the U.S.,Sierra Nevada region of California, near Sequoia National Park.

BR is merely my initials.
The name Rothhammer is Bavarian.
Material property
 
#38 · (Edited by Moderator)
Did you happen to read the earlier discussion about the MS action ?

In short we wernt sure if the smoothness of the MS action was degraded somewhat at a certain point in the post ww2 production, and if it was, when it happened.
Yes, I've read this and the discussion about this problem will never end in German hunting forums like "Wild und Hund", more than 100 pages.
The smoothness of the MS Action has ended after WWII, when started a new production in 1950 in Austria. The very costly manufacturing of the receiver has ended by to change the opening curve from the receiver ring to the barrel. No noise by the receiver before WWII when moved, going by itselv, when in vertical position to reload.

The MS was a European arm, was expensive, and the American buyers were unfamiliar with it. Most went unsold and were returned to Steyr who reconfigured them to other calibers for European markets and continued production of the 'M1924/25' in various calibers.
Here you can see the history of all:
Text Font Document Paper
 
#34 ·
Hello Rothhammer, ok, the information has been duely noted.
I will check for said characteristics on Tuesday and let you know.

The dealership in possession of the rifles are based near Copenhagen, so should you want to purchase the rifle, they will have to ship it overseas. I believe the dealership does offer this service, though naturally for a fee.

But let us first find out just what kind of 3006 MS model this is, and then we'll take it from there.

Best regards!
Claus
 
#35 ·
Hello Rothhammer, ok, the information has been duely noted.
I will check for said characteristics on Tuesday and let you know.

The dealership in possession of the rifles are based near Copenhagen, so should you want to purchase the rifle, they will have to ship it overseas. I believe the dealership does offer this service, though naturally for a fee.

But let us first find out just what kind of 3006 MS model this is, and then we'll take it from there.

Best regards!
Claus
I'll watch with interest, but I shudder to think of the legal quagmire associated with purchasing a firearm from outside of the U.S. with laws as they are here in California. It's hard enough to transfer one from another state.

I have seen M1924 Sequoias come up for sale in California on internet listings, but the prices have been dear. My next firearm purchase may be a Luger, if the 'right one' comes along. Those have become rather pricey as well.

Either way you go with your purchase, I'm sure you'll enjoy a Mannlicher Schoenauer.
Alpine hat, walking stick and lederhosen are optional.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top