Read a recent article in Handguns Aug/Sep 2017 p40 "Going the Distance."
The above is not their pistol article on their web (Long Distance Lessons): http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-training/tactics_training_long_distance_lessons/
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The magazine article made a comment about when your pistol needs to be a rifle. Granted those type of confrontations are rare, but they are increasing. The article didn't get into types of defensive ammo. They were only concerned w/ getting on target.
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It would be interesting to hear from those that shoot their EDC pistols at 100 yards. If you shoot your EDC at that distance, post a pix of your pistol w/ it's front and rear sights seen (ie laying on its side) and where the front sight is in relation to the back sight when shot at the 100 yard target. For instace, the article wrote about 1/3 of the front sight elevated above the rear sight, with the bottom of it even with the rear sight noth notch. The tip of the front sight was placed at the 6 oclock of the bottom of the target as astarting point.
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The article spoke of right handed shooters hitting off to the left of the target and vice vers for lefties. So more front/back trigger control was needed. The article also stated after training for distance, the shorter targets will be like billboards.
One of the shooters was hitting sihoulette at 200 yards consistant enough that Mohammad better be on the look out if this female happens to be packing in your mall the next time he yells AA.
She used a Kimber 1911, 5" MIchi-Guns Custom 45 200g Sig V-Crown JHP at 200 yads.
This is not an easy question to answer. Each caliber, and each weight of bullet will make different impacts on a 100 yard target, as well as each gun. Some guns in the same caliber will have different hold overs depending on what type/weight bullet you are shooting. I carry a Charter Arms Bull Dog in .44 special. Actually I have two of them, and shooting the same bullet in both guns, the hold over is different. What anyone needs to do is set up a target at 100 yards. Back it with some butchers paper, at least 4 sq. feet if possible. Fire one round dead center of the target. You will then see how much hold over you will need with that particular hand gun, and that particular bullet. Elmer Keith had two groves cut into his front sight, and then had gold wire inlaid in the grooves. It looked something like the picture below. Just cutting the grooves, and inlaying them with gold wire does not indicate anything. He then had to go to the range to find out just how much hold over each gold wire gave him.
Each caliber, and each weight of bullet will make different impacts on a 100 yard target, as well as each gun. Some guns in the same caliber will have different hold overs depending on what type/weight bullet you are shooting. I carry a Charter Arms Bull Dog in .44 special. Actually I have two of them, and shooting the same bullet in both guns, the hold over is different.
You'd also better be able to shoot a tight group at 25 yards, because that group will be 4 times larger at 100. With my 3" J Frame I'm pretty darned happy that I'm consistently able to put 5 in the 6" ring offhand at 25. That's a 24" group at 100, assuming I can see the target as well, which I cannot.
If I have to hit a bad guy at 100 yards with my J Frame I'm in a lot of trouble, I want a rest and a spotter helping me. I've never even shot it at anything over 50 yards.
This is the driver. I wouldn't think my little 1-7/8 would hit anything in my hands at 100 yards. But my full sized 1911 or my xdm comp 45 5-.25" would.
Holy cow 100 yards! Occasionally I shoot a full size 9mm close to 70 yards. I'm not too proud to admit all I manage is probably 50% hits on a silhouette. Regular contrast sights on a SIG 226. I would say about 20% of the front sight above the rear. Plain Jane 9mm ball ammo. I'll have to try the 938. I can't imagine hitting anything. I'm quite impressed by the folks that can shoot tiny handguns effectively at that range.
Some years back, Tuckered1 and I were shooting
bowling pins at 100 yds with my .40 racegun. I remember aiming at the small pin head and hitting the main body. Maybe aiming 4" high.
I shoot my 6" 586 at a gong at 100 once in a while. With full power 158 grain 38 special flat points it shoots about 5" low. I've also shot full size 1911s at 100, I can ring the gong, aim at the top edge, they also drop 4 or 5 inches.
Remember, shooting is 95 percent mental and five percent physical. If you believe you can do something, then there's nothing to stop you but yourself. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true. If you don't believe you can hit a silhouette at 100 yards with your Glock 23, you never will.
Would be interesting to have some ransom rest shooting at 100 and 200 into ballistic gel. You'd think at 200 ball ammo would be a better option w/ less drag and may be more velocity for penetration. But at 200, would +p work against a person (thinking stability)?
You mean stability as in the bullet veering off course? I had a 9mm that could not hit a milk jug at 40 yards, you could see the bullet veering off course. I'm sure because of too slow of twist, coupled with transonic flight.
If your muzzle velocity was subsonic, I don't think you'd have that problem. My hunting pistol was a 357 mag, my hunting rounds were loaded subsonic, (1050fps,) and I had no stability problems.
Now when I loaded the 125gr bullet at 1300fps, it shot great at 30 yards, but at 75 I would not be able to hit a deer vitals.
People shooting long distance with handguns doesn't bother me at all. I couldn't tell you what one of my 6" guns could do, I don't recall ever shooting at a paper target with one. My carry gun is a shield and I'm not sure of the length of the barrel but awfully short! I've always liked shooting my handgun's but if shooting got serious, I always switch to a rifle! With my shield trying to aim at and actually hit a target is a sometimes thing so, I taught myself to point and shoot, works much better for me.
Now the idea that you might need a carry gun at 100yds is lost on me. Even 50 yds. Problem being, other than trouble hitting at those ranger's, how do you know your being assaulted? If your not under attack, how do you justify shooting? If the deal is an attack by a foreign enemy or even domestic, I'd grab a rifle, not a handgun. I would think that the law would say you had plenty of opportunely to evade the attack which stop's the need to fire in defense.
Sometime's I think the shooting games that come out f the shooting on by boredom world, both rifle and handgun, are brought on by boredom.
How about when the coyote is running away, with your cat in its mouth?
There must be hundreds of scenarios that could merit a quick 100 yard shot, when a rifle isn't handy.
Holy cow 100 yards! Occasionally I shoot a full size 9mm close to 70 yards. I'm not too proud to admit all I manage is probably 50% hits on a silhouette. Regular contrast sights on a SIG 226. I would say about 20% of the front sight above the rear. Plain Jane 9mm ball ammo. I'll have to try the 938. I can't imagine hitting anything. I'm quite impressed by the folks that can shoot tiny handguns effectively at that range.
Agreed. my edc are .380 a sig p230 and 238. I'm just not able to hit a pistol target at 100 yards with 1" bbl guns.
Move that up to my 357 or 44, and yes, I can ring the 100 yard gong and 'pattern' on a target... but really. anything past 25 yard shots seems un needed for edc pistol use...
I can't really justify what I do with a handgun at the range but typically I will sit on the bench across the front of the shooting table and shoot each of the 8" disks at 50 feet then take a shot at the 4' spinner also at 50 feet then move down range taking one shot at the 10" disk at 25 yards, one at the 12" disk at 37 yards, one shot at the 15" disk at 50 yards and then what ever is left in the mag I fire at the 15"x23" tombstone steel hanging at 80 yards. I usually miss one or two shots at that tombstone. There is an 8" plate and a 4" plate at 100 yards but I can not see them so I don't even try. I will shoot this routine with what ever hand gun I might have with me. My little Ruger LCP and my ability fall short past 25 yards. The 4" and 5" handguns and I can usually hit them all but I sometimes get careless at that tombstone and sure enough that is a miss. This is all done off hand but seated. I am getting pretty shaky any more and the eye sight is not what it used to be. Red dot optics on some of the handguns has improved my success. But heck it is all a lot of fun.
There may be instances when a threat may be noticed at 100 yards, but if I did fire at the "perceived" threat, and hit it, and it was really a kid with a tennis racket....who would be guilty, the threat or the shooter? Identify the threat...gotta be a WHOLE LOT closer that 100 yards...
I'm thinking you have to be sure it's a threat. As for a coyote running off with the cat. I still would not shot at it. I'd be just as likely to hit the cat as the coyote.
And now we are talking about a fleeing, diminishing 1/4 size target at 100 yards and farther every second.
Yall guys are more manly than me.
If I hit that target at that range it would be a luck shot. My edc self defense weapon isn't a rifle. At 25 yards and under I'm confident in my practice that I can put all shots in a torso target. But id be hard pressed for farther, and worried where missed shots would go.
I'd be worried about the ballistic coefficient of a hollow point not moving fast enough to expand, or even penetrate for that matter. Let's face it, if you were in that situation, you won't have the time to switch bullets in the mag. If, and only if, I were in a situation where I needed 100 yard shot out of a pistol, I'd more interested in getting the H*** out of dodge rather than trying to pull that shot off. If I absolutely knew I could move in closer maybe, but I have my doubts.
I will Sa one thing.. When it comes to hollow points hornady critical defense gets my vote. Good profile for flight, good opening at impact, with great weight retention, and no over penetration even at virtually point blank range.
I'm not worried about how well any pistol of mine does at anything beyond 25 yards - being a **defensive** weapon. If a bad guy is coming at me at 100 yards with a knife he will have to get a lot closer to be a threat.
There are a lot more smarter people than me about defensive shooting situations, but to me that sort of use would be at or under 30 feet - 10 yards. Maybe in a scenario like a Mall parking lot where someone is shooting - then the range would be more like 25 to 50 yards tops. I can see serious practice for that range - just to see how your pistol performs at those ranges. But for a matter of routine practice, my lowly opinion is to practice for practical shooting distances.
If I am going into a situation where I suspect there might be trouble with someone with a rifle - I am taking a rifle with a magazine large enough to survive a shootout. I wouldn't take a knife to a gun fight, and I wouldn't take a pistol to a long range fire fight.
The lady in the article hit all shots at 200 w/ her 1911 45. I can't wait to see if I can even find one in the target, but I will start that as part of my practice. Seems not only fun to work on, but who knows, it might help my short game.
Practicing at distance is a great way to practice your fundamentals and push yourself beyond your current limitations. Long distance shots require great sight alignment and excellent trigger control. If you can make a torso shot at 50 yards, or further, with a handgun, then making the same shot at 5 yards can only be easier. Even if you don't think long distance shots are likely to occur in a self-defense situation, there is plenty of value to be had practicing these shots. Whether it's to be prepared for the unlikely event you to take a long shot, or just to reinforce the fundamentals, practicing at extreme distances is a great way to push your limits and improve your skills. And it can be a lot of fun too! But suppose you are in the mall, or even the parking lot, when you hear rapid fire form some where not near you. You duck, take cover, and after a minute or so, you hear the shooting stop. You look, and there 80 yards away is the bad guy reloading his rifle. What do you do? Let him continue to reload, or make the shot?
As others have stated the farther it is the less likely you will be in justifying it as self defense. We are not soldiers or police. Discretion is the better part of valor, it's best to leave if at all possible............however. There is no harm in knowing what you are capable of at various distances with the different handguns you carry. Would you ever find yourself in a situation where you may wish to take a long shot........never say never. Self protection is only part of the reason we choose to be armed, defense of others is a major part of it also for most I believe. If you found yourself out and some nut is shooting at people it might prove useful to know that braced against the string bean shelve you could make that 50 yard or perhaps farther shot........
I agree about the plan to either leave or attack. Got that word, attack! Some of these law suit's that I hear about breaking you even if you win have me convinced. Unless it's family or a very close friend, escape and evade! And before you make that attack, you may get yourself killed, no coming back from that. Still, for family or a close friend, I'd go. I think to many people over think this process and in the process you could get yourself of someone else hurt very badly; maybe dead. Protect yourself, your family and close friends and then lay back and let the cop's do their job. That's what they are paid for!
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