The Firearms Forum banner

Help with .223 data

3K views 33 replies 11 participants last post by  slayer 
#1 ·
I'm loading for rifle for the first time and having trouble finding consistent data for .223 with my components.

I'm using Winchester 55gr FMJBT and IMR 4064. I can't find data for these two components together. The data I find for that powder with a similar bullet varies quite a bit, depending on the source. One source shows a starting charge of 21.5gr, while others show a starting charge of 24.5gr or more.

Does anyone have a reliable source for those two components? The rounds will be used in an AR, if that helps.

Thanks for any advice.
 
#2 ·
You most likely won't find data using the Win. bullets. I use a lot of them and haven't yet. I checked the Hodgdon website and the fluke was a Sierra bullet. The rest showed 21 grn minimum and 23 grn max. I would start at 21 and work from there.
 
#3 ·
When the bullet manufacturer fails to have data for your bullet of choice, try the powder manufacture/distributor. In this case IMR powders are distributed in the USA by Hodgdon. The 21 to 23 range seems right but IMR4064 seems a bit bulky and the max loads are compressed which is not a good idea for a new reloader. There are no FMJ loads on the Hodgdon reloading web page so avoid the max loads that are compressed, is my suggestion.

I would buy several manuals and compare loads for 55 gr FMJ bullets and pick a powder better suited to them. Avoid any that use a compressed load for maximum at this stage in your reloading experience. There is very little difference in the load data for a 55 gr FMJ because they are all pretty much the same. The 55gr FMJ were at one time the Military's bullet of choice for the AR16.

LDBennett
 
#11 ·
there's nothing to worry about
I rarely have a need to shoot compressed loads. I also look for the cheaper powders that are easy to buy that use less powder as I am cheap. May be you can give a few thoughts as I've oftened wonder about using bullets that are of the correct weight but not listed in any manual as different manufactures have different length bullets. So lets say you bought an off brand long bullet and the manual used a shorter bullet and you adjust the cartridge by oal. Now the powder is more compressed than the recipe was called for. So it seems it would be prudent to know the length of the manual bullet and compare w/ your off-brand bullet and adjust accordingly. Some loads use powder that is edgy nearer the upper limits and might be finicky sooner than later as you walk up your loads watching for pressure. Any thoughts?
 
#7 ·
There is nothing unsafe about compressed loads in reloading manuals. But it is another potential problem for a new reloader as the powder can push the bullet out of the case some amount over time if the crimp is not good. A new reloading needs their first reloads to be simple and work fine. Adding inconsistence to the result with variable length finished cartridges is probably not good. Once success is had and reloading is better learned then compressed loads are no problem.

LDBennett
 
#9 ·
CrookCountyGO:

The actual process for rifle cartridges is different from straight wall handgun cartridge. The sequence is different as well. First clean, size and de-prime, measure for case overall length, trim if necessary (which might be as often as every other reload), prime, add powder (notice no flare), seat bullet and crimp. Instead of a three die set (crimp and seating in one die) you use only two dies (crimp and seating in one die) for rifles cartridges.

The sizing die for rifles makes the mouth of the case a few thousandths small than the bullet to create neck tension to hold the bullet in place. Handgun die sets that size the case size it below the nominal size and the flaring die makes the mouth the right diameter and flares the case mouth to allow the bullet to easily start seating.

Also if you choose to crimp (all magazine guns especially auto loaders and hunting rounds you might carry in your pocket as backup rounds) the crimp is taper normally. LEE makes a Rifle Factory Crimp Die (FCD) that uses a closing collet to crimp the bullet in place that I particularly like. The equivalent handgun FCD works on a completely different principle (regular crimp with a sizing portion at the die entrance to remove the bulge of a poorly done crimp) not at all to my liking and is not worth buying.

Good luck with your rifle reloading. Take it slow at first and double check everything.

LDBennett
 
#12 ·
Also if you choose to crimp (all magazine guns especially auto loaders and hunting rounds you might carry in your pocket as backup rounds) the crimp is taper normally. LEE makes a Rifle Factory Crimp Die (FCD) that uses a closing collet to crimp the bullet in place that I particularly like.
On your advice quite some time ago, I will be using the Lee FCD.
 
#10 ·
IMR-4064 is an odd choice for loading .223/5.56mm and 55 grain FMJ bullets. With so many much better proven powder choices (CFE, H-335, etc. etc. etc) why would you choose to use a powder like 4064 and have to compress or fool around with it? IMR-4064 has some really great uses in certain larger calibers - but it is at the lower end of the practical scale for a .223, and certainly so if you are going to run it thru (I assume) an AR platform.

If it is a matter of "it can be done so I'm going to do it" - go for it and the best of luck. Not criticizing - just curious.
 
#13 · (Edited)
IMR-4064 is an odd choice for loading .223/5.56mm and 55 grain FMJ bullets.
Jim,

I'm certainly not married to 4064. I've never reloaded rifle before, so I checked my sources for common powders with the 55gr bullet, and 4064 was one of the powders listed in several. So I wasn't even aware that it's an odd choice. I then took my list to my nearest gun/reloading supply shop, and 4064 was what they had on the shelf. May I ask what makes it an odd choice, specifically with the AR platform?
 
#15 ·
I was going to say the burning rate is wrong but in reviewing the burning rate chart that is not the case. But certainly it is its bulkiness and the fact that max velocity is a compressed load. Many other choices of powder do not compress the charge. Save the 4064 some other larger capacity cartridge and get a different choice. One of the spherical powders from Hodgdon's offers would be a better choice. I use H335 for 223 but I found a load (in a manual) that shot great in a Browning A-Bolt but was too hot for a Browning 1885 Single shot by a couple grains. So develop the loads, bottom up.

Also I have a powder plan. I like ball powders for use in my Dillon Progressive press because they flow well through their powder measure. So I alway have on hand H335, H380, H440 and W231 (for most pistol rounds which is Hodgdon HP38 exactly). I occasionally use other powders too but this bunch of Hodgdon powders will reload 99% of my 30+ different cartridges I reload for. Hodgdon is a powder DISTRIBUTOR , not a manufacturer of powder. They distribute Winchester, IMR and their own line. They will be around for a long time I would bet.

LDBennett
 
#22 ·
My 223 ammo is varied because I have a Browning 1885 single shot which I use with lighter Varmint style loads and I have a heavy barrel AR with a fast twist match grade barrel which likes heavy 223 bullets. I also have a Thompson Center Contender with a 14 inch barrel handgun which I load with run of the mill 55gr FMJ bullets. So I am all over the place with 223. Oh, and I load for my son's AR which is a more a military flat top configuration using 55 gr FMJ or what ever goes bang.

LDBennett
 
#23 ·
I don't bother with the "new" powders...in .223-W748-H335 or 332-or 8208 work best.Why load compressed loads?absolutely no reason when better powders exist......and the most accurate bullet I've loaded in .223----52grSMK-all my ARs are 1/7 or 1/8-this bullet defies all the silly bullet weight charts.
 
#24 ·
The secret to using lighter bullet in fast twist barrels is the construction of the bullet. Some older designs can not take the centrifugal forces from the high twist rate and can come apart before reaching the target. (Been there, done that!)

Some testing may be required if you choose light weight bullets for fast twist barrels. The charts are for minimum twist rate, not optimum. You can not over stabilize a bullet but you can spin it so fast it comes apart (explodes).

LDBennett
 
#25 ·
I just got done loading a ladder test for my recently acquired 223 savage. I remembered this post and figured I'd go to hodgdon and compare H335 with IMR4064. I found that H335 gave a mind blowing 2 more fps lol so, I figured I'd give 4064 a try. Hodgdons data is 23-25.7C. So I sized, removed the primer crimps(I don't know how anyone loads this cartridge religiously with those dumb crimped primer pockets. Good grief!) and started throwing 23gr of powder. At 24gr I would estimate it to be 100% case fill. I finally stopped at 25.5gr. The cases I used are federal, bullets are hornady 55gr sp w/c seated to the base of the cannelure. I'll probably get to the range next week or the week after and follow up with my results and synopsis.
Here are some pics of the headstamp and the charged cases with 23.5-25.5 grains of powder.

Light Metal Circle Office equipment Brass
Finger Nail Thumb Box Packaging and labeling
Finger Wrist Amber Nail Analog watch
 
#31 ·
I got to shoot my test loads today. My loads consisted of 23.0-25.5gr of IMR4064 with federal cases and CCI magnum primers. I was shooting a savage axis with a 1:9 twist barrel. My chronograph was 15' out. My best group was at 23gr, muzzle velocity was 2,830fps(37fps slower than hodgdons velocity) with no more than 10fps deviation in the 3 shot group. I've ran a lot of ladder tests for a lot of different cartridges and this is the first time that I've ever had a starting charge be the most accurate.
At 25.5gr I got a little over 3,100fps and a large group lol. I believe if I used a heavier bullet more suited for the twist that the groups would have been better.
I would definitely use IMR4064 in a 223 again.
 
#27 ·
I'm loading for rifle for the first time and having trouble finding consistent data for .223 with my components.
A 55 gr bullet is a 55gr bullet is a 55gr bullet. That is with cup and core bullet's. People using premium bullet's think the rules change because of different bering surface ect. They may be right, That I don't know as I have seldom shot anything other than cup and core bullet's. The bullet your talking about is a cup and core bullet. Find any manual with a 55 gr cup and core listed and use that data remembering, always start low and work up. If you can't find data for the powder you want, pick another powder. You have a cup and core bullet that weight's 55gr. get any data for that weight bullet and use it. If you don't want to change powder to one there is data for, don't know what to tell you. If using someone else's data from a published source but for a different brand bullet, simple, change brand of bullet's. If you don't want to change brands, again, don't know what to tell you!
 
#29 ·
Thanks for all the feedback, guys. I went with 21 grains and tested 10 rounds a couple days ago. All functioned perfectly, and 21 gr does not appear to be even close to compressed, so I think I'll finish out that pound of 4064 for my plinking rounds and then try something different later. Also, I was surprised at how well 4064 metered through my RCBS powder thrower. It gave consistent charges of 21 - 21.3 grains.
 
#32 ·
slayer, glad you found a good load but what accuracy did you get, at what range, and under what conditions?

If you read all the teat data in the magazine for various cartridges it is very rare that the best specs (lowest velocity deviation between shots and other specs of consistency of velocity between shots) give the best accuracy. It seems there are so many variables, some unknown, that velocity variations between shots are not the answer to the potential for an accurate load. I put no credence in velocity variation data. All that counts in the end is which load gives the best accuracy. I quit using my chronograph as it was a pain to set up and I got no useful data from it. It makes no difference to me what velocity and/or load level gives the best accuracy. The best load can be any, from the starting load to the max load.

It has been proven scientifically that variation in load levels change where the muzzle is at in its harmonic motion caused by the firing. You want the muzzle at the extreme of the motion position where the barrel has to turn around. At those points the barrel is virtually stopped. In any other part of the barrel motion, the barrel is moving and the exact exit of the bullet is not so well defined.

Ladder testing can get you to a better accuracy load faster. Chronograph data is almost useless if you start from published loads in reloading manuals.

LDBennett
 
#34 ·
I didn't measure the groups but by the 1" squares on the target, it was under an inch. Shots were at 100yds. It was clear and a scorchingly hot 70 degrees with little wind. I don't plan on keeping this gun a 223(not a fan of the cartridge) I just wanted to see how well IMR4064 would perform in it.
I run most of my test loads over a chronograph so that I can compare with what the manual says. Knowing the velocity gives more insight as to what the pressures are. I don't believe in the old wives tales of looking for flattened primers or case expansion. They're just not accurate.
I do agree that the velocity deviation between shots groups don't have much bearing on group size but, there are some that do and look for a powder that have less deviation. In this case with 4064 it definitely does that.

you should try min 5-10 rd groups,I found(and pulled)rds that looked good with 3,but really opened up with 10shots-not rapid fire-about 2rds per minute.And I'm old,just put a 6x25x56 on a frigging AR DRM-18",rifle gas,5R 1/8.First 3 at 24gr Benchmark,(52grHPBT),touching,then opens-went to 24.5...10 went into same space as 3.
That's true but, what I do is the initial work up. Then once I find a charge that looks promising I'll work around that charge in 1/10gr increments to see if the groups tighten up. Once I've settled on a charge I'll shoot more rounds to see just how good it is. In this case, I have no plans to keep it a 223 so it was just to see how the powder performed in it in case someone else wanted to try the powder.
 
#33 ·
you should try min 5-10 rd groups,I found(and pulled)rds that looked good with 3,but really opened up with 10shots-not rapid fire-about 2rds per minute.And I'm old,just put a 6x25x56 on a frigging AR DRM-18",rifle gas,5R 1/8.First 3 at 24gr Benchmark,(52grHPBT),touching,then opens-went to 24.5...10 went into same space as 3.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top