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.38 special for carbine

8K views 18 replies 7 participants last post by  Mr_Flintstone 
#1 · (Edited)
In my opinion there's a huge difference between .38 and .357 from a carbine. This got me to wondering what some of the slower burning loads for .38 Special +P would do from a carbine.

IMR 4227 gains about 400 fps with 140 grain XTP going from a pistol to the 20" Henry 38/357 Big Boy; up to just over 1900 fps. The .38 +P load for 4227/140 gr XTP shows just over 1100 fps from a pistol. What kind of velocity do you think I could expect from the 4227 .38 +P loaded to the 1100 fps mark for a 7.7 inch pistol and shot from the Henry?

Is there a better powder to load the .38 special for carbine use?
 
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#2 ·
I'm confused.

>IMR 4227 gains about 400 fps with 140 grain XTP going from a pistol to the 20" Henry 38/357 Big Boy; up to just over 1900 fps.<

This implies that you get 1500 fps out of a pistol with a 38 special.

Been drinking your breakfast?
 
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#5 ·
Nah. It was late last night, and I'd just got in from a trip and was kinda tired. I meant to say 1900 fps with the 140 grain XTP and 4227 loaded into the .357 and shot out of the Henry.

IMR 4227 is a slow burning powder, and I doubt you will burn all the powder in a given load, in a pistol. In a rifle you should get more bullet speed, if the barrel is short, as in a carbine. But due to bullet drag a longer barrel might strip some of the bullet speed once the powder is all burned, and there is still barrel out there in front of the bullet. Are you using IMR 4227 Magnum powder, or IMR 4227?
I'm still kinda new at reloading, but I've never seen any IMR 4227 Magnum powder at stores around here. I'm using the new IMR 4227. I did call Hodgdon about some confusion I had over load data with H4227, and they told me that the new IMR 4227 was the only one they made now; and that I could use load data for either powder, but to start low and work up.

The second part of what you said was really what I was concerned with. I know that 9mm and 45 acp max out at about 16 inches. I imagine 38 special (even hot with slow powder) would max out around there or maybe a little less. I was just wondering if anyone may have had experience with this.
 
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#4 ·
IMR 4227 is a slow burning powder, and I doubt you will burn all the powder in a given load, in a pistol. In a rifle you should get more bullet speed, if the barrel is short, as in a carbine. But due to bullet drag a longer barrel might strip some of the bullet speed once the powder is all burned, and there is still barrel out there in front of the bullet. Are you using IMR 4227 Magnum powder, or IMR 4227?
 
#6 ·
Well, I just had one of those "Duh!" moments. No sooner had I finished posting above, when I remembered Ballistics By The Inch. On their 38 Special page, the closest to this load is Speer 135 gr Gold dot. It continues to climb in velocity to 16 inches where the data stops for that load. All the others seem to max at around 16 inches too. 357 continues to climb past 18 inches though. Just "guesstimating" based on BBTI data, it looks like most 38 special gains about 100 fps from 8 inches to 18 inches. So it "looks" like I might get something like 1200-1250 fps.
 
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#7 ·
I have a copy of HANDLOADER magazine that has load data for .38 Special loads that are about 100 fps or so slower than .357 Magnum loads for the same bullet weight. These were taken from Elmer Keith's publications and many are in the 34-35,000 psi pressure range. There's also some data about a Skeeter Skelton load that uses 2400 powder, a Lyman 358156 cast gas check bullet crimped into the second crimp groove of this bullet, loaded in .38 Special cases. This load supposedly duplicates the .357 Magnum when magnum cases aren't available.
You talked of using IMR 4227, my experience with it is that it is extremely dirty, at least when used in a handgun. You might have different results using it in a rifle length barrel.
 
#9 ·
It's not that IMR 4227 is a 'dirty' powder, it's that it just doesn't all get burned in a short barrel, like a hand gun.
 
#10 ·
I wasn't necessarily looking for 357 level loads from 38 cases. More like something in-between 38 and 357. I guess look for some other data sources. I want something around 1400-1500 fps in 140 gr jacketed from a 20 inch barrel.
 
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#11 ·
.357 can be loaded down to .38 ballistics. Instead of trying to wring more out of a .38, why not load down with the .357. That's what I do with the .44 mag. Sometimes you will have a problem with the shorter cases hanging up in the guns built for longer pistol rounds. Go with the length of case for the rifle (357), and load down to what you would like to achieve.
 
#12 ·
Agree with carver. I have, as many folks I know of has, loaded everything from powder puff loads up to full magnum loads in magnum brass (I've used from 123 gr. balls in my 44 Magnums to 310 "oil drums" in magnum brass). I have loaded 38 Special data in 357 Magnum brass, but I realize the listed velocity will be higher than what I really get. I too would suggest you down load your 357 brass to the "mid-range" you're looking for (perhaps use 38 +P data, and perhaps 4227 isn't a good choice...).
 
#13 ·
According to Hodgdon, it looks like 6.3-7 grains of Titegroup (.357 data) will give 1325-1425 fps from an 18" rifle. I have some of that on hand. I may load some up and give it a try.
 
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#16 ·
I think you are on the right track now.
 
#18 ·
#19 ·
I've noticed that in my Henry 357 and M1 carbine, 4227 isn't any dirtier than anything else. When I shoot it from a 4" or worse yet, a 2" pistol barrel, they look like a stove pipe, and the brass is even black.
 
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